[Sidewinder]

Hey guys,

was planning on installing race cats or deleting the cat completely. i want the that raw sound as well as to enhance the flame thing our cars do .

Now i know that i will get a check engine light because of the missing cats as the exhaust temperature will be much higher.

Is there a way to eliminate the CEL without a complete remap ?

What i mean is using one of CEL eliminators
Vibrant Check Engine Light Eliminator Oxygen Sensor Fitting with adjustable "jets" 11621

Will this hamper performance by anyway since the reading may not be accurate ? Or is the function of the second O2 sensor solely to see if the cat works ?

Is this a good option or should i stick with getting a remap ?
Thanks guys

[ALEX A]

HI, I have a new set of european race cats. Please let me know if you are interested. You will have to reprogram the engine ECU. I believe that fabspeed can program the ECU.
Thanks
Alex.

[StefVan]

Hi Harsh,

I would not recommend to remove your cats or install any kind of race cats as this can have consequences on your engine. There are very few race cats on the market which can be considered as a replacement of the stock cats. Most of them have a very bad coating or worst, have a too small diameter. Afterall, it's your car but just be aware that on modern cars, catalysers should be considered as an integer part of the engine. Without them, an engine will not run in a normal condition, even with a so called remap of the ECU's

[Pooya]

Originally Posted by StefVan

Hi Harsh,

I would not recommend to remove your cats or install any kind of race cats as this can have consequences on your engine. There are very few race cats on the market which can be considered as a replacement of the stock cats. Most of them have a very bad coating or worst, have a too small diameter. Afterall, it's your car but just be aware that on modern cars, catalysers should be considered as an integer part of the engine. Without them, an engine will not run in a normal condition, even with a so called remap of the ECU's

Speaking about cats!

Is everybody having this white powder on cats?

[StefVan]

Pooya, there is a good chance that the white powder comes from your muffler. The muffler has lots of white insulation material all around and very often, some leaks appear around the exhaust pipes join. This dust starts then getting everywhere in the engine bay. I would start checking the muffler first and make sure there are no leaks around the exhaust pipes.

[Pooya]

Originally Posted by StefVan

Pooya, there is a good chance that the white powder comes from your muffler. The muffler has lots of white insulation material all around and very often, some leaks appear around the exhaust pipes join. This dust starts then getting everywhere in the engine bay. I would start checking the muffler first and make sure there are no leaks around the exhaust pipes.

I will shoot some photos and share...

[markjayw]

There are many owners running straight pipes on their Scuderia's with no ill effects, but a remap is required. It will be insanely loud though, be prepared.

[StefVan]

Maybe Mark but these owners don't have much miles on their engine and will sell their cars well before is getting into anything above 30K miles. I would like to see the results on an engine running straight pipes during 60K miles

[StefVan]

Originally Posted by Pooya

I will shoot some photos and share...

Yes, please do

[markjayw]

Originally Posted by StefVan

Maybe Mark but these owners don't have much miles on their engine and will sell their cars well before is getting into anything above 30K miles. I would like to see the results on an engine running straight pipes during 60K miles

Feel free to talk with Rad, F430GT on Fchat, he runs straight pipes sometimes, and also runs at Daytona and Sebring, but he also has an Evomsit tune. He has quite a lot of track miles on his car.

[360trev]

Technically, if re-mapping is done properly (and that's a big *if*, which I believe Stef is pointing out) then deleting the cats should result in a healthy increase in power. Overall it will significantly reduce back-pressure too [which is a good thing, having a positive impact on engine efficiency, fuel economy and power].

Sports cats vs Straight through pipes.
Its been discussed to death this but since it is largely a 'dimensioning' exercise you'll find that if you size up your diameter of piping and high flow cells bricks appropriately for the levels of flow required there is very little to be gained by deleting them completely. In fact your better of spending your money else where.

I actually prefer sports cats over straight through since they can dampen down sound levels significantly without barely impacting power [almost immeasurable if sized up well]. Europe has got very upset about noise levels in recent years, even on racing tracks!

Its worth mentioning that a car without cats can be very anti-social and in many regions, and unless converting to off road 'challenge' spec, it can be illegal too since if the car fails its emissions tests it is no longer road legal in many places [and thus is insurance invalidating!].

Good sports/race cats on the other hand will still pass emissions tests in many places [although you'll need to check your own countries laws on messing with emissions equipment, as in some places its completely illegal].

We seem to only be talking about exhaust and mapping here, but there are many other elements that need correctly dimensioning too, not to mention fueling and intake.

Other Improvements
While on the subject of improvements, its interesting to see that on the new Ferrari F12, the engineers have used a increased displacement 'bolt on' induction chamber castings. Something like this could be done for other models .. These 'air resonators' improve cylinder filling and increase engine torque. Not to mention opting for a super high [200 bar psi!] direct fuel injection!

[tazandjan]

Trev- The other good news about sport cats is they keep the car legal. It is against the law over here to remove the cats from a US spec car.

[360trev]

Originally Posted by tazandjan

Trev- The other good news about sport cats is they keep the car legal. It is against the law over here to remove the cats from a US spec car.

Agreed, sport cats are the way to go! I don't see the point taking unnecessary risks like this, particularly for such minimal gains, there are literally so many other ways to improve performance that illegal ones don't make any sense whatsoever!

[Sidewinder]

Alright guys ,

However isnt the sole job of the cat converter to control the emission levels and are thus acting restrictive and eat horse power ?

Good example is how super cars in the past very nearly as fast as the ones in the early 2000's ?

i dont have emission testing in my state so am not worried about the legals of this mod.

Would you recommend headers ? and a tune ?

[markjayw]

Originally Posted by Sidewinder

Alright guys ,

However isnt the sole job of the cat converter to control the emission levels and are thus acting restrictive and eat horse power ?

Good example is how super cars in the past very nearly as fast as the ones in the early 2000's ?

i dont have emission testing in my state so am not worried about the legals of this mod.

Would you recommend headers ? and a tune ?

Assume you have an F430? You have 2 cats on your car, the one's in the headers, and the normal cats. Best bet would be: Headers, sport cats, new muffler with valves, and tune.

[360trev]

Originally Posted by markjayw

Assume you have an F430? You have 2 cats on your car, the one's in the headers, and the normal cats. Best bet would be: Headers, sport cats, new muffler with valves, and tune.

Agreed.

[Tio]

Hi guys, I believe I can chip in a little bit here because I have done just that.
What i mean is that I have changed headers with not cat versions and also replaced the secondary cats with sports 200 cell cats and also got an ecu tune together with BMC air filters and carbon air box covers.
The result was a very healthy 540bhp with tonnes of low down torque.
The car is basically an animal!
But I could never get rid of the CEL P0420 and P0430 codes ( which they basically say that the cats are not efficient enough).
After trying different solutions for about 3 months, eventually I decided to replace the original cats back in the car and the CEL disappeared for ever.
I reckon I lost 5-10bhp and I can honestly say that I prefer the sound of the car as it is now rather than how it was before and it is still much quicker than any standard F430.

Don't forget when we talk about sound, it's not just taking the car out for a drive, but it is about being able to live with the car for a long period of time, with out getting on your or your neighbours nerves.
If you replace the headers and get an ECU tuned by a reputable tuner and perhaps high flow air filters, you will be extremely happy with the results with out having unnecessary headaches.
But's ultimately it's your call.

[StefVan]

Originally Posted by Tio

Don't forget when we talk about sound, it's not just taking the car out for a drive, but it is about being able to live with the car for a long period of time, with out getting on your or your neighbours nerves.

Very well said Harry . As Ferrari owners we have to behave in a civilized way and respect the emission laws With changing only the headers, the car is already much louder but it remains bearable when the exhaust valves are closed.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by StefVan

Very well said Harry . As Ferrari owners we have to behave in a civilized way and respect the emission laws With changing only the headers, the car is already much louder but it remains bearable when the exhaust valves are closed.

Absolutely Stef!

As you have said before, the idea of these forums is to share information and experience with other members so they avoid making the same mistakes that we have made and therefore save them selves time and money!

[360trev]

I think Harry is absolutely bang on the money with the F430.

I remember trying to help him with his cat issues [over email unfortunately]. The cat efficiency is much more closely monitored on the F430 vs the 360 so if your tuner really isn't an expert with Bosch Motronic ECU's I'd be wary about messing with the main cats. The F430 introduced the use of wideband O2 sensors on both the pre and post cats vs the 360 which had simple narrowband sensors post cats [with wideband only used for pre-cat]. Obviously depends on if you get lucky with the efficiency of the sport cat you buy [or not] as to whether you'll have any issues.

The signals can indeed be simulated [or ignored in the ecu program by patching the code] but it requires the tuner to really know their onions from their IDA disassembler.

Ideally they need to patch the original code [hard] or develop a small embedded inline ecu [easier] which can tap into the pre-cat sensors signals as well as the original post-cat sensors. Monitoring BOTH sets. This way if there is a problem with either pre or post cat sensors they can 'see' this and trigger the appropriate CEL warning, while at the same time falling back using the working sensors in closed loop mode. Resulting in perfect operation regardless of cat efficiency.

Not sure if anyone in the aftermarket has yet designed something as reliable as this, most attempts simply ignore the original signal. The best thing about the way I've described is that it still leaves the factory safety net in place. This doesn't need mega mips power, a simple power spike industrialized STM32 ARM based Arduino clone would do the job.

Stef, if you want this to be our first collaborate project more than willing to help... I've done the original ground work already...