[N2 TRBL]

Pardon my ignorance, but I have been reading up and absorbing as much info as I can before I buy.

I keep running across quotes on this forum which tell newbies to buy a 2003+ year model 360, but never state why.

Why is this sound advice?

What changes were made to the 360 in 2003?

I've read both the older 360 owners manual and the 2003 owners manual and see no differences?

Thanks in advance,
Royce

[tazandjan]

There are several reasons for buying a later model 360. First the F1 ECU/TCU (electronic control unit/transmission control unit) software was updated at Assembly Number 47115, SN 1299XX (2002) and 47380, SN 1301XX (later in 02) to improve smoothness and also allow a hand entry of the point of intial clutch slippage (PIS) value. Previous editions of the software could only command PIS to self adjust and start and shifting algorithms were less refined.

For MY 03 in Summer 02, a new Motronic ECU was also introduced, but I am unsure what improvements it brought.

Also, in late 2003 a very troublesome 30 amp F1 pump motor relay, which had a tendenccy to fuse its contacts and keep the pump motor running continuously until it burned out, was replaced with a 50 amp relay.

For the Spider, in the late 01 timeframe changes were made to the top mechanism that allowed some maintenance operations to be performed without having to remove the entire top mechanism.

Somebody else can probably add to the list, the the F1 ECU/TCU was the big deal.

Note that it is relatively easy to exchange a newer 360 or Challenge Stradale F1 ECU/TCU for the old one, so I would not hesitate to buy an earlier 360 in excellent condition. There are also higher capacity F1 pump motor relays available. The 575M had the same 30 amp relay and I already have an uprated replacement for mine.

[champagne612]

The Ferrari shops know - what's up with 360's

Get one you love - have them go over the known issues and enjoy it.

There is plenty of knowledge here to keep you on the road without overpaying.

Good Luck on the hunt

[David993s]

Here's another perspective: One advantage of a 99 model is no pre-cats. If one found a really nice 99 with all the updates and a later TCU etc., it would be just if not more as desirable IMHO.

[Killer58]

If memory serves, the variators were changed in 02. During my search, I remember Josh at ECS telling me to get an 02 or later in order to have all the important updates.

[N2 TRBL]

Oh wow, thanks for all the responses! I see I have a bit of homework to add to my already huge pile. I did buy the PDF buyers guide from here, but it doesn't mention anything about the year difference.

Reading this, I see there is probably nothing too significant between the years to sway me for a few thousand more for a newer year, but I will keep my eyes peeled for the best deal. While I am anxious, I love the browsing/buying experience when I WANT a car, and don't NEED a car. Get to be patient and strike when I feel comfortable.


Thanks fellas, I appreciate all the help and support! I've been on some, let's say "less helpful" forums who just take joy alienating new comers. True enthusiasts will support one another as well as bring along the newbies to elevate their knowledge...makes for a better community in the long run.

Thanks once again,
Royce

Originally Posted by tazandjan

There are several reasons for buying a later model 360. First the F1 ECU/TCU (electronic control unit/transmission control unit) software was updated at Assembly Number 47115, SN 1299XX (2002) and 47380, SN 1301XX (later in 02) to improve smoothness and also allow a hand entry of the point of intial clutch slippage (PIS) value. Previous editions of the software could only command PIS to self adjust and start and shifting algorithms were less refined.

For MY 03 in Summer 02, a new Motronic ECU was also introduced, but I am unsure what improvements it brought.

Also, in late 2003 a very troublesome 30 amp F1 pump motor relay, which had a tendenccy to fuse its contacts and keep the pump motor running continuously until it burned out, was replaced with a 50 amp relay.

For the Spider, in the late 01 timeframe changes were made to the top mechanism that allowed some maintenance operations to be performed without having to remove the entire top mechanism.

Somebody else can probably add to the list, the the F1 ECU/TCU was the big deal.

Note that it is relatively easy to exchange a newer 360 or Challenge Stradale F1 ECU/TCU for the old one, so I would not hesitate to buy an earlier 360 in excellent condition. There are also higher capacity F1 pump motor relays available. The 575M had the same 30 amp relay and I already have an uprated replacement for mine.

Originally Posted by champagne612

The Ferrari shops know - what's up with 360's

Get one you love - have them go over the known issues and enjoy it.

There is plenty of knowledge here to keep you on the road without overpaying.

Good Luck on the hunt

Originally Posted by David993s

Here's another perspective: One advantage of a 99 model is no pre-cats. If one found a really nice 99 with all the updates and a later TCU etc., it would be just if not more as desirable IMHO.

Originally Posted by Killer58

If memory serves, the variators were changed in 02. During my search, I remember Josh at ECS telling me to get an 02 or later in order to have all the important updates.

[David993s]

Originally Posted by Killer58

If memory serves, the variators were changed in 02. During my search, I remember Josh at ECS telling me to get an 02 or later in order to have all the important updates.

Good point. I would be surprised if there are any 360's that haven't had the variators updated. I know my 99 was updated years ago.

[Granucci]

Originally Posted by N2 TRBL

Oh wow, thanks for all the responses! I see I have a bit of homework to add to my already huge pile. I did buy the PDF buyers guide from here, but it doesn't mention anything about the year difference.

.........Thanks once again,
Royce

This is a good point. I am wondering if there shouldn't be a more comp guide update as to 'issues and solutions'?

I know it could go on forever, but perhaps providing the PDF with a hyper link to the Issues/Solutions on FerrariLife would make the document more meaningful in today's updating world and make it more 'dynamic' like to the WiKi area.

Can't keep updating the basic well written body, which IMO is ok, just provide the links to the updates solutions and a recent release notes/letters etc. like Taz' posts.

This is normal fare in PDF docs like updating the Index or glossary etc. I could do it, but my Acrobat PDF Pro has imbedded reg key and I therefore would be imbedding the licensing to a company that has no business editing such.

My two cents.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Granucci

This is a good point. I am wondering if there shouldn't be a more comp guide update as to 'issues and solutions'?

I know it could go on forever, but perhaps providing the PDF with a hyper link to the Issues/Solutions on FerrariLife would make the document more meaningful in today's updating world and make it more 'dynamic' like to the WiKi area.

Can't keep updating the basic well written body, which IMO is ok, just provide the links to the updates solutions and a recent release notes/letters etc. like Taz' posts.

This is normal fare in PDF docs like updating the Index or glossary etc. I could do it, but my Acrobat PDF Pro has imbedded reg key and I therefore would be imbedding the licensing to a company that has no business editing such.

My two cents.

It's a good idea. Current layout is built using page layout software. Bringing the guides to a different core format that can easily be exported to PDF might be the best. If it lives in a database and can easily be updated that would be ideal. The user can then export to PDF if they don't want to read it from a tablet or computer screen.

[Granucci]

Originally Posted by Andrew

It's a good idea. Current layout is built using page layout software. Bringing the guides to a different core format that can easily be exported to PDF might be the best. If it lives in a database and can easily be updated that would be ideal. The user can then export to PDF if they don't want to read it from a tablet or computer screen.

Thanks for responding:

- Exactly. With the vast amount of postings now in a Wiki, like say from Tazanjan, it would be a shame not to have such links made available with corrected/updated links to Ferrari sheets etc.

- This is where digital can shine.

This will make the site all the better, and IMO, the BEST of the sites about the 'inter-webs'.

well done......

trouble with wiki concepts only is if EVERYONE is allowed to update/edit someone else's posts or the posts are not qualified with documentation.

Experience is great also, but that will be substantiated I hope somehow.

r

[N2 TRBL]

Wow, this would be extremely helpful, AND would be the best source of (organized) info online by far I am sure. Way to respond!

Originally Posted by Andrew

It's a good idea. Current layout is built using page layout software. Bringing the guides to a different core format that can easily be exported to PDF might be the best. If it lives in a database and can easily be updated that would be ideal. The user can then export to PDF if they don't want to read it from a tablet or computer screen.

Originally Posted by Granucci

Thanks for responding:

- Exactly. With the vast amount of postings now in a Wiki, like say from Tazanjan, it would be a shame not to have such links made available with corrected/updated links to Ferrari sheets etc.

- This is where digital can shine.

This will make the site all the better, and IMO, the BEST of the sites about the 'inter-webs'.

well done......

trouble with wiki concepts only is if EVERYONE is allowed to update/edit someone else's posts or the posts are not qualified with documentation.

Experience is great also, but that will be substantiated I hope somehow.

r

[carguy]

Early cars had some tendancy to develop cracks in the rear frame section I believe. But in defense of early cars....they have less weight and do NOT have the troublesome header-catalysts....but seperate cats. I'd take a '99 360 any day, as long as the updates have been done.

[Camdon53]

It appears all 360s were NOT created equal but can be made so with some effort. As with all Ferrari street cars, there were problems with earlier models that were corrected over time through factory campaigns and upgrades. Some issues are quite serious because failure involves very significant damage and repair costs, such as the cam variator shaft, cracking of the rear frame, cracking motor & transmission mounts, starter ring gear, and transmission throwout bearing & seal. Some of the lesser issues are suspension bushings, several fluid leaks, major ABS and F1 transmission ECU & software upgrades.

All major issues and most minor ones were corrected by the ’02 model year. Upgrading the ’99-’01 cars was covered by factory warranty but only IF the early owner(s) used an authorized maintenance facility and/or cared enough to make sure all campaigns and upgrades were performed. I've seen several ’99-’01 cars whose owners claim certain upgrades but have no documentation to back it up. I've also seen instances where documentation appears to indicate upgrades but careful examination of the car seems otherwise. There are no pre-cats in the ’99 cars and some claim this adds a few HP but I've seen no empirical evidence of that.

Then there are the so-called “Euro cars” built for the European market but imported and modified for sale in the U.S. (identified by “B” instead of “A” in the 8th character of the VIN). These seem to be perfectly good cars assuming they have all the EPA and DOT paperwork to prove the “federalization” was done properly and legally. Without complete paperwork there can be real problems selling and registering these cars in some states. Because of the potential problem(s) these cars are typically priced noticeably lower than U.S. built cars.

I believe buying a Euro or a ’99-‘01 must be accompanied by significantly more work to determine what (if any) paperwork, upgrades and campaigns are still required and what the additional cost(s) might be. However, if (and it’s a big “IF”) everything has truly been upgraded to latest factory standards, there is little or no real difference. My personal choice was to stick with ’02-’05 U.S. built cars and simply bypass the extra work and worry.

[wetpet]

+1 on a '99. great value right now too.