Trouble with engine light/code P0174 and K&N's?

Levi Palmer · 05-05-2011, 08:32 AM

Had timing belt done and had K&N's placed by a performace shop. Got engine light/error code P0174 R bank too lean after leaving shop. Removed MAF sensors and found oil on R side. I had them clean and replace them. Engine ran rough and then seemed to start running better.... then got the engine light and code again 10 minutes later... cleaned AGAIN and got the light again. Could the cam timing be the issue? I took it back to the shop b/c it's a friend, but now i'm thinking of sucking it up and taking it to Ferrari. Thoughts?

cribbj · 05-05-2011, 09:41 AM

I'd first get rid of the K&N's, go back to the stock filters, reset the ECU and then let it go through the learning phase of the new setup, then see if things are any better.

I'm no Ferrari guru, but have had similar experiences with K&N's on other MAF based cars, and as a result, I only run K&N's now on MAP based setups.

Granucci · 05-05-2011, 11:21 AM

I'm not as good as cribbj [tha's not an insult, just fact], but I have had K&Ns in both Ferraris for years now and no problems.

I do like his idea of diagnosis. Replace with stock filters, let it relearn and go from there. BUT< I'm concened they let the car out the door with problems, which actually makes me wonder what real problems they induced with the belt change and not the filters.

Just to ask the obvious: have they worked on a Ferrari changing a belt before? Others will know for sure, but if they got the timing off during the change, well, time to get an expert in there. Personally I would NOT run it before a proper testing at a rep. shop.

Something tells me you saved no money on this and will need a timing.

Levi Palmer · 05-05-2011, 01:23 PM

Cool thanks for the advice. Just dropped it off this morning again for them to evaluate for one last chance if oil has completely covered the MAF sensors yet again. They have worked on Ferraris in the past, but not sure about timing belt changes. They through away the old filters, so I'll be ordering new ones to start at square one again. I have a feeling Ferrari is going to be upset when I bring the car to them like this... i think they will get over it when they give me the bill though

ferraricyprus · 05-06-2011, 09:12 AM

I've replaced dozens and dozens of trashed mafs because of this very issue. You can loose up to a volt on the reference signal to the motronic. Only this type of filter with MINIMAL oil will prevent the issue. I've also found that cleaning MAFS to be largely unsuccesful as the hot wire gets damaged....Also the motronics will need reseting on an SD2 as the adaptive maps will be all over the place....

Granucci · 05-06-2011, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferraricyprus

I've replaced dozens and dozens of trashed mafs because of this very issue. You can loose up to a volt on the reference signal to the motronic. Only this type of filter with MINIMAL oil will prevent the issue. I've also found that cleaning MAFS to be largely unsuccesful as the hot wire gets damaged....Also the motronics will need reseting on an SD2 as the adaptive maps will be all over the place....

Ok. So, help me/us out here as I'm obviously no genius on diagnosis: Is there a chance they also induced a timing change via that belt swapping?

Is there more than just the filters going on here?

ferraricyprus · 05-09-2011, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Granucci

Ok. So, help me/us out here as I'm obviously no genius on diagnosis: Is there a chance they also induced a timing change via that belt swapping?

Is there more than just the filters going on here?

I would also check the engine oil level. Overfilled engine oil is a big killer of MAFS too. If they set the timing up wrong you would have more to worry about than just a P-code issue, i personly think it's down to a MAF/too much oil/overoiled k&n's, but obviously this is just internet hypothesis....

Granucci · 05-09-2011, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferraricyprus

I would also check the engine oil level. Overfilled engine oil is a big killer of MAFS too. If they set the timing up wrong you would have more to worry about than just a P-code issue, i personly think it's down to a MAF/too much oil/overoiled k&n's, but obviously this is just internet hypothesis....

Thanks for your PM.

Will be looking to go back to OEM filters as I KNOW I am remiss on oiling the K&N's according to specs. Best to just dump them when due.

On that oil overfill: Not saying they wouldn't know a dry sump scenario, but if they did fill according to a cold engine, then yup!!!! the overfill scenario on these will not play well with an engine.

Levi Palmer · 05-11-2011, 09:16 PM

THanks everyone for your help. Turns out there was oil all over the MAF again, and it swiched to bank 2... so the code is following that sensor

. They cleaned them AGAIN and car is running perfectly and no engine light has come on... we'll see how it does on a long trip to SF this weekend.

bill ward · 05-15-2011, 02:09 PM

Sir-
I have heard of this but, as I do my own work, I wash filters one day and oil next.Allow to dry and no problems. 1 RV, 3 trucks, and 33 year old Ferrari.I like K&N's if only because I don't throw them away. bill

KKRace · 05-16-2011, 07:35 PM

I'm not a fan of K & N filters and I don't even believe they give you a HP increase in most cases. I've had some experience with American V8s on the dyno. From what I hear putting a K & N on most new cars voids your warrentee due to the issue of oil on the MAF sensors. If you go light on the oil then they don't filter the air very well. Stick to paper unless you are into frequent engine rebuilds.

Levi Palmer · 05-26-2011, 10:31 AM

Soooo.... After a $168 eval at Ferrari, they found more oil on sensors and P0174/P0171... both sides too lean. They said lots of oil in intake as well. They said it was likely from an overfill of the oil on a service I had in the past...but not the most recent b/c the oil level was fine. If the oil level is over filled, oil can be pushed or sucked into the intake system through the PCV system as there is an extreme amount of pressure. The crank case as well as the oil tank has PCV.They swapped the sensors from a car they had there and said the codes went away. $2250 for new sensors including labor. Contacted the shop that has always done oil changes and said it's from the K&N's....Ferrari Mechanic said not likely due to the amount of oil present. I'm inclined to believe the Ferrari Mechanic. What an expensive lesson.

05-05-2011, 08:32 AM	#1
Levi Palmer Owner Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Lakeport, Ca Ferrari Life Posts: 29	Trouble with engine light/code P0174 and K&N's? Had timing belt done and had K&N's placed by a performace shop. Got engine light/error code P0174 R bank too lean after leaving shop. Removed MAF sensors and found oil on R side. I had them clean and replace them. Engine ran rough and then seemed to start running better.... then got the engine light and code again 10 minutes later... cleaned AGAIN and got the light again. Could the cam timing be the issue? I took it back to the shop b/c it's a friend, but now i'm thinking of sucking it up and taking it to Ferrari. Thoughts?

05-05-2011, 09:41 AM	#2
cribbj Owner Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Houston Ferrari Life Posts: 737 Name: John	I'd first get rid of the K&N's, go back to the stock filters, reset the ECU and then let it go through the learning phase of the new setup, then see if things are any better. I'm no Ferrari guru, but have had similar experiences with K&N's on other MAF based cars, and as a result, I only run K&N's now on MAP based setups. '99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084 High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

05-05-2011, 11:21 AM	#3
Granucci Owner Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: far and away Ferrari Life Posts: 5,047	I'm not as good as cribbj [tha's not an insult, just fact], but I have had K&Ns in both Ferraris for years now and no problems. I do like his idea of diagnosis. Replace with stock filters, let it relearn and go from there. BUT< I'm concened they let the car out the door with problems, which actually makes me wonder what real problems they induced with the belt change and not the filters. Just to ask the obvious: have they worked on a Ferrari changing a belt before? Others will know for sure, but if they got the timing off during the change, well, time to get an expert in there. Personally I would NOT run it before a proper testing at a rep. shop. Something tells me you saved no money on this and will need a timing. Guide to the Galaxy: Don't Panic Rik -- LAH ! Current: 1990 Mondial T Cabriolet : Red/Tan 1995 456 GT 2+2 : Roso Metalizzato [Fer 311/C] & Tan

05-16-2011, 07:35 PM	#11
KKRace Owner Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Near Olney, MD Ferrari Life Posts: 884 Name: Kevin	I'm not a fan of K & N filters and I don't even believe they give you a HP increase in most cases. I've had some experience with American V8s on the dyno. From what I hear putting a K & N on most new cars voids your warrentee due to the issue of oil on the MAF sensors. If you go light on the oil then they don't filter the air very well. Stick to paper unless you are into frequent engine rebuilds. ------------------------------ Life is Good!

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05-05-2011, 01:23 PM	#4
Levi Palmer Owner Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Lakeport, Ca Ferrari Life Posts: 29	Cool thanks for the advice. Just dropped it off this morning again for them to evaluate for one last chance if oil has completely covered the MAF sensors yet again. They have worked on Ferraris in the past, but not sure about timing belt changes. They through away the old filters, so I'll be ordering new ones to start at square one again. I have a feeling Ferrari is going to be upset when I bring the car to them like this... i think they will get over it when they give me the bill though

05-06-2011, 09:12 AM	#5
ferraricyprus Owner Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Cyprus Ferrari Life Posts: 35 Name: Ed	I've replaced dozens and dozens of trashed mafs because of this very issue. You can loose up to a volt on the reference signal to the motronic. Only this type of filter with MINIMAL oil will prevent the issue. I've also found that cleaning MAFS to be largely unsuccesful as the hot wire gets damaged....Also the motronics will need reseting on an SD2 as the adaptive maps will be all over the place....

05-11-2011, 09:16 PM	#9
Levi Palmer Owner Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Lakeport, Ca Ferrari Life Posts: 29	THanks everyone for your help. Turns out there was oil all over the MAF again, and it swiched to bank 2... so the code is following that sensor . They cleaned them AGAIN and car is running perfectly and no engine light has come on... we'll see how it does on a long trip to SF this weekend.

05-15-2011, 02:09 PM	#10
bill ward Owner Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Three forks, MT,USA Ferrari Life Posts: 90	Sir- I have heard of this but, as I do my own work, I wash filters one day and oil next.Allow to dry and no problems. 1 RV, 3 trucks, and 33 year old Ferrari.I like K&N's if only because I don't throw them away. bill

05-26-2011, 10:31 AM	#12
Levi Palmer Owner Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Lakeport, Ca Ferrari Life Posts: 29	Soooo.... After a $168 eval at Ferrari, they found more oil on sensors and P0174/P0171... both sides too lean. They said lots of oil in intake as well. They said it was likely from an overfill of the oil on a service I had in the past...but not the most recent b/c the oil level was fine. If the oil level is over filled, oil can be pushed or sucked into the intake system through the PCV system as there is an extreme amount of pressure. The crank case as well as the oil tank has PCV.They swapped the sensors from a car they had there and said the codes went away. $2250 for new sensors including labor. Contacted the shop that has always done oil changes and said it's from the K&N's....Ferrari Mechanic said not likely due to the amount of oil present. I'm inclined to believe the Ferrari Mechanic. What an expensive lesson.