[jaticker]

I'm buying a used 550. On my street cars I usually run a K & N Airfilter. Can I get your thoughts on fitting these to the 550.
Thanks

[cribbj]

Interested in this as well.

[mk e]

I like K&N type filters (they are off patent so there are copies these days) and I run them on all my performance stuff.......but I'm pretty sure they don't actually filter as well as the OEM type filters or they would come stock on something somewhere in the world.

I saw some data about particle size and such once and it confirmed that the K&N was certainly not the ultimate for filtering. If I recall right they do work pretty well when freshly oiled but pretty quickly drop....I can't remember where I saw the test data......

On the flip side I've never seen dyno results (after proper tuning) where a K&N didn't add HP and a walk thru the pits on race day and you'll likely not find anything but K&N type filters.

I think the answer is that if you drive the car hard at high rpm often then firction forces will wear out the engine long before dirt plays much of a roll but if you're gentle with it then it's the oil and air filters that are the biggest players. I might be wrong though.....

[Artvonne]

Oh, who needs a stinkin air filter. Dirt roads, sure. But on clear black top roads, open velocity stacks. Like these, lol.

[ECSofVirginia]

Artvonne...I've actually worked with that 308. It was owned by a gentleman in San Diego for a while. Those velocity stacks ended up choking the car out at high RPM and needed to be removed to make it run right.

I've never done particulate research on the air filters, but I have done some dyno testing on both Ferraris and AMG Mercedes.

On both occasions I've found the K&N to make no gain over the OEM filter and a BMC to make approx. 1whp gain. This was done in successesion as well so there weren't any atmospheric advantages.

[Artvonne]

Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia

Artvonne...I've actually worked with that 308. It was owned by a gentleman in San Diego for a while. Those velocity stacks ended up choking the car out at high RPM and needed to be removed to make it run right.

The taller stacks should have induced more air at high rpm, and theoretically made more power. If it was going over rich in the top end it was likely the wrong E tube.

[cribbj]

Originally Posted by Artvonne

The taller stacks should have induced more air at high rpm, and theoretically made more power. If it was going over rich in the top end it was likely the wrong E tube.

Hmm, I've always thought the inverse was true. Tall stacks for low end grunt, short stacks for top end.

[mk e]

Originally Posted by cribbj

Hmm, I've always thought the inverse was true. Tall stacks for low end grunt, short stacks for top end.

That matches my experience in general. There are exceptions of course like adding 1/2" might move you from tuning the 3rd harmonic to the second harmonic so the extra lenght inceased the tuned rpm point....but then addig additional lenght will lower the rpm point.

If there is addiquate taper in the system then lenght will not effect flow one way or the other but that is certainly not the case with a 2V carb intake track design. I have a software for modeling intake track performance....which doesn't work at all when I try to plug in 308 vintage Ferrari info. 2v or 4v it doesn't understand way either work as well as they do. That inportant because it means all bets are off about what might happen whne you mess with them.

[Artvonne]

It is quite fascinating how different people working with the same engine can get different results. Books and talking about about it only go so far, at some point you have to get dirt under your nails. The rest of motordom, transmissions, suspension, brakes, what have you, it all follows specific rules, and gives specific results; A+B=C.

Engines dont always follow the hard and fast rules, and often behave more like living breathing beasts than simple machines. Even within the same breed, built by the very top professionals following very precise instructions, each can behave different from one another. Some particular engines are just hotter for some unknown reason, and some are just dogs. It may only be fractions, but its there sometimes. Sure, its always some defect that "can" be found, if you look hard enough, but finding it can more often drive you insane. And as we move away from stock OEM specifications and design, and start creating madness, the rules become a no mans land.

I have been trying to decipher Emulsion tubes, and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that its something that will just have to be experimented with to be able to have any clue how each one performs. I am beginning to believe that if you change jetting to any degree from standard you would need to use a different E tube. When just changing the muffler or cleaning out the air cleaner insulation forces a jetting change, you really start to realize how sensitive these things are. Hot it up and put modded parts on it, and your back in no mans land, and they dont always follow "the rules".

I guess what I am trying to say, is that I understand that sometimes we have to just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are presented, rather than second guess someone else's findings. Sometimes it just works "that way", and nothing on Gods green earth is going to change it for the better unless we make some radical change somewhere else.

[mc399]

Originally Posted by Artvonne

It is quite fascinating how different people working with the same engine can get different results. Books and talking about about it only go so far, at some point you have to get dirt under your nails. The rest of motordom, transmissions, suspension, brakes, what have you, it all follows specific rules, and gives specific results; A+B=C.

Engines dont always follow the hard and fast rules, and often behave more like living breathing beasts than simple machines. Even within the same breed, built by the very top professionals following very precise instructions, each can behave different from one another. Some particular engines are just hotter for some unknown reason, and some are just dogs. It may only be fractions, but its there sometimes. Sure, its always some defect that "can" be found, if you look hard enough, but finding it can more often drive you insane. And as we move away from stock OEM specifications and design, and start creating madness, the rules become a no mans land.

I have been trying to decipher Emulsion tubes, and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that its something that will just have to be experimented with to be able to have any clue how each one performs. I am beginning to believe that if you change jetting to any degree from standard you would need to use a different E tube. When just changing the muffler or cleaning out the air cleaner insulation forces a jetting change, you really start to realize how sensitive these things are. Hot it up and put modded parts on it, and your back in no mans land, and they dont always follow "the rules".

I guess what I am trying to say, is that I understand that sometimes we have to just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are presented, rather than second guess someone else's findings. Sometimes it just works "that way", and nothing on Gods green earth is going to change it for the better unless we make some radical change somewhere else.

, I hate your approach -

You need to crack a book "player", empirical experience is great but assuming that you can guess your way into understanding an engine (or anything else) designed around scientific principles won't get you anywhere. Think you would know that especialy after reading this thread in particular

[Artvonne]

Originally Posted by mc399

, I hate your approach -

You need to crack a book "player",

Player? Excuse me? My God, why are we screwing around building our own flow benches to try to port our own heads instead of just reading how to do it in a book (cut here, grind there), we must be real freakin idiots.

Wow, all those months and 100's of hours Russ wasted trying to tune the carbs on his modded 3.4 Mondial, changing jetting and E tubes and venturis, and all he had to do was read a damned book?

Maybe you should tell him to crack a book. Maybe you want to tell Mark here to crack a book. Tell him how he's wasting time flowing his heads and running computer sims. Well genius, some of us old farts dont have sim software, we have to tune these sob's the old fashioned way, trial and error. Its NOT in a damned book. I have all the Weber books I know exist, and its not in any of them.

But hey, you seem to be a know it all. Enlighten us. I want to know which book has all the info on E tubes.

[ramosel]

Originally Posted by Artvonne

I have been trying to decipher Emulsion tubes, and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that its something that will just have to be experimented with to be able to have any clue how each one performs. I am beginning to believe that if you change jetting to any degree from standard you would need to use a different E tube. When just changing the muffler or cleaning out the air cleaner insulation forces a jetting change, you really start to realize how sensitive these things are. Hot it up and put modded parts on it, and your back in no mans land, and they dont always follow "the rules".

Pure and simple... I'm convinced its a "black art". Having haunted race tracks for years and spent WAY too much money on motors... I've met 100s of folks who claim to understand this stuff and only about 3 can deliver the goods... Huffaker is one of them but he doesn't share anything (not even your own dyno sheets). But he makes them sing wonderful songs and will always get 5 more HP than anyone else... I don't know how he does it??!?!???

Rick

[KKRace]

Getting back to the original post, I'm not a huge fan of K&N air filters on street cars. They don't filter that well and if you don't put the right amount of oil on them they either filter even less or ruin your MAP sensor and void your warrentee. I have even seen some applications where they make less HP.

On racecars we usually have lots of room and just need something to keep out rocks and small birds. The ones that fit the American Muscle cars that have filter on the top in place of the steel cover have been known to robb HP

[Artvonne]

To mc399

Hey. I didnt mean to slam you, but I didnt appreciate being slammed either. This is a smaller forum, its not the big evil Fchat, and many of the people here just want some, I dont know, mellowness? To have the freedom to swear if the mood strikes you, but we seem to reserve ourselves, even though no one cares?

I came here a while back and found it kind of dead, to put it mildly. Fchat had banned me over my defense of a religious virtue I have and I took offense. The plain truth is, they banned me over a Christian comment I made. So I came here and found nothing happening and felt real lost. I didnt want to be there, but I didnt want to be here if nothing was happening either. 50 something and needing a Ferrari fix on the web, wow, whoduthunkit. But there is a great deal of knowledge here, and thats why were here.

What I am saying is, these forums are filled with some real characters. You have wealthy snobs that wouldn't know a Phillips from a screwdriver if their life depended on it, to Mark here, who can cut up real expensive Ferrari parts with a sawzall and weld them back together into something different faster than you can say WTF, to your poor folk like me who have sand in their pockets and a Ferrari out back in a trailer thanks to the depression. And everything in between.

What im saying is, is that I never in my wildest dreams would have believed I would have shut down a new guy on his first post. You have balls. I have to say I sat there for a bit trying to figure out WTH you just said. Made me take stock of myself. Which is never a bad thing, we all need to check ourselves on occasion lest we get to large of head.

So come back. Throw your hat in. Piss someone else off. They really are just cars, and real people really own them. Its the outside world thats in the dark my friend.

[KKRace]

Originally Posted by mc399

, I hate your approach -

You need to crack a book "player", empirical experience is great but assuming that you can guess your way into understanding an engine (or anything else) designed around scientific principles won't get you anywhere. Think you would know that especialy after reading this thread in particular

This is your one and only post since joining in June? No introduction or information about yourself?

The guys at Quicksilver race engines used to build my formula 2000 motor and also for most of the other guys that wanted to win. They specialized in building the FF2000 motors and the Toyota Formula Atlantic motors and did pretty much nothing else. They told me they build each motor the same and yet when they put them on the dyno they would see as much as 15 hp difference. They could always find the hp on the dyno buy tweaking cam timing etc but as much as they tried to build every motor the same they would always see slight differences.

[Artvonne]

Originally Posted by KKRace

They could always find the hp on the dyno buy tweaking cam timing etc but as much as they tried to build every motor the same they would always see slight differences.

If you really want to see strange stuff, read a few NTSB transcripts on aircraft accidents involving engine failures. An undetected harmonic imbalance can rob power, and all the teardowns and visual inspections in the world will NEVER find it. Sometimes you wont find the reason until it goes BANG!

Its those part failures that go undetected, the faults that arent found in all those annual inspections or during engine or component overhauls, the parts that pass X-ray and magnaflux tests, etc., but then fly apart, that keep my ass out of Helicopters. Too many Jesus bolts. And all that reading makes me much more appreciative of Ferrari. He built some very tough machines.

[compute42]

Originally Posted by Artvonne

Its those part failures that go undetected, the faults that arent found in all those annual inspections or during engine or component overhauls, the parts that pass X-ray and magnaflux tests, etc., but then fly apart, that keep my ass out of Helicopters. Too many Jesus bolts. And all that reading makes me much more appreciative of Ferrari. He built some very tough machines.

Even as something small as improper torque order on main bolts can shred and airplane engine. Or a random carbon deposit leading to a stuck valve.

I fly piston planes, the maint on a Ferrari sounds like a walk in the park compared to an airplane.

A mandated 2000-hour overhaul on a tiny 180HP 4cyl Lycoming IO-360 is north of 20k! Your not even guaranteed a new crank either, all they do is "verify tolerances" for 20k!!!

I don't trust "black art" with my ass in the sky that's for sure.

[wetpet]

I understand mc's point. and it is valid to make it. i think the problem is the ferrarichat mentality. try making it again with a little respect and you might get a better response. we are not here to "own" each other. there are other sites for that. we are here to exchange information and have a good time.funny, most of the top mechanics i have met didn't get there by reading books. you could consider the internet a large library of books, this one being the flife book. plenty of experts have been generated this way. in my own business, the books are usually right in theory and wrong in practice. sorta like the democrats . (that one is for you red tr). i will say this about k&n's, when i put them on the diablo it certainly opened up the breathing. the intakes just behind your head turned into loud vacuum cleaners instantly. Did i get better performance? in my mind i did. good enough for the $40. luckily, the diablo already has a screen to keep the birds out.

to the op. my reading of the thread is in your application, 6 of one, half dozen of another. maybe you gain an hp or two, maybe you don't. nothing earth shattering either way. since the air intakes aren't near your ears with the windows down, you probably won't be able to notice a difference.

[Artvonne]

Originally Posted by compute42

I don't trust "black art" with my ass in the sky that's for sure.

I dont believe you can ever trust an airplane.

[compute42]

Originally Posted by Artvonne

I dont believe you can ever trust an airplane.

If it flys, floats, or ........