[kubes]

Dear All:

I am considering buying my first Ferrari. I first test drove a 360 Modena about 7 weeks ago. What a ride! But I’ve also been eyeing the 575M for awhile, and went down to Florida to test drive this car just last week:

Used Exotic Car Dealer Florida | Exotic Car Dealership Florida | Black Horse Motors | 2002 Ferrari 575 Maranello

Without going into crazy details, I am leaning towards this 575 – I love the V12 and the color combination, and think it’s just a little more usable as a GT vs. the 360, which is great as well but is a little more of a track car in my mind (no offense to anybody, just my opinion).


The car looks like it’s in great shape and only has 8,400 miles on it. I have gone through all the service records the dealer provided me (having trouble uploading attachments due to file type (XPS) and size (>5MB) limits for now; will see if I can add missing files later). To my untrained eye, things look to be in order. Here’s a quick run-down of what I read:

• Belts have been serviced twice – in 9/06 and 4/09
• There was an issue with the car not staying in first gear, which was addressed with a new ECU in 6/08 (any idea what this was about?)
• The leather on the dash was redone (presumably b/c of shrinkage) in 1/09
• The rear quarter windows were replaced in 11/09, possibly due to sealing issues (any comments on this?)
• A number of campaigns were run by Ferrari (104: tire pressure valves; 120: transaxle dipstick; 148: ground wire in the OBDII plug; 107: transmission ECU)
• According to the Carfax, the car was serviced at Bentley Long Island between 11/07 to 4/08, but these records are missing

Needless to say, if I go forward with the deal I would have a PPI done. In the meantime, I would like to pose the following questions to this esteemed group:

1. Does anyone happen to know this particular vehicle (VIN: ZFFBV55A020130079)?
2. Do you have any comments on the services performed above (especially the questions asked)?
3. Is there something I am missing or other things I should be looking for (btw, I did review and discuss the items mentioned in the 575 buyers guide)?
4. When I saw the car (it was early morning in FL), there was a little condensation inside the headlamp cover – is this normal?
5. How serious do you think the missing 6 months of records between 11/07 and 4/08 are? I am considering reaching out to BLI directly myself – any advice for or against doing so?
6. Do people have any thoughts/comments on the asking price (if not appropriate, I apologize for asking)?

Thanks in advance to everyone for responding. And please don’t hesitate to ask any questions in case I left anything out. Crossing my fingers and hoping to join the club of Ferrari owners here!

Cheers!
Kubes

[champagne612]

Dennis

Welcome to FLife

2nd Happy New Year

3rd and most important - that is a gorgeous 575!

I will let the experts answer your questions - the price may be a little high but it's not going to last long!

Whoever spec'd that car did it right - that 575 is IMO very desirable.

[henryr]

pretty car but if i recall correctly that (both?) - the burgundy one has some sort of "history"

btw - i've been kicking around selling mine..... i can't guarantee that i'll actually accept an offer as i am coming to the realization that the 550/575 cars are the best bang for the buck for the money

thinking of selling the 575...... - FerrariChat.com

[kubes]

Doug: thanks for the welcome. I agree, it's a gorgeous car, but to your point that it won't last long -- it's been on the market for almost 10 months! I think that's reflected in the price (I agree, seems a little high).

HenryR: you really piqued my interest by mentioning the burgundy one as well. Sequential VIN numbers, and also sold by the same dealer (see website posted above under "recently sold"). Do you happen to recall what sort of "history" these cars might have (feel free to PM me if inappropriate to post publicly)? Thanks in advance!

[champagne612]

Originally Posted by kubes

Doug: thanks for the welcome. I agree, it's a gorgeous car, but to your point that it won't last long -- it's been on the market for almost 10 months! I think that's reflected in the price (I agree, seems a little high).

HenryR: you really piqued my interest by mentioning the burgundy one as well. Sequential VIN numbers, and also sold by the same dealer (see website posted above under "recently sold"). Do you happen to recall what sort of "history" these cars might have (feel free to PM me if inappropriate to post publicly)? Thanks in advance!

That's why I let the experts have at it - weird there must be a story.

[henryr]

believe there is a thread over on the other site. something with the drivers door, paint thickness

[tazandjan]

Henry- How about a reference? Searching the serial number turned up nothing. The car is not in my database, but Carbon may know something

Kubes- Car has been overserviced on belt changes, good. Interval is 5 years, but not widely known or ignored because of old 3 year references in the owners manual and workshop manual.

Gearchange problem was addressed with a potentiometer in what you attached, not an ECU. Big difference. Rare problem and once fixed, should be fine.

Factory campaigns are no problem and normal for new models, which the 575M was.

Shrinkage of dash leather is common (mine has been replaced) and the owner overkilled on the solution, recovering the dash, instrument panel, and airbag cover to get a perfect match of leather, good.

Have never heard of rear quarter window issues on 575Ms, so unknown to me. Sounds like the owner was ripped off, to be perfectly honest.

Condensation in the headlights can be fixed by removing the bulbs and blowing into the opening with a hair dryer. The units are not completely sealed and the humidity in the South will tend to fog them. No problem here in New Mexico, no surprise.


November 07 to April 08 is less than the normal annual service interval. No comment.

Car has the basic highly desired options including 19" modulars, Daytona inserts (electric seats and memory are standard), rear shelf and painted calipers. Plus it has the rare quilted rear shelf and headliner. Not on option lists, but available.

Price is relatively high. Do not know if there are any warts or not with no personal experience with the car.

Odds are this car is a consignment and the price is susceptible to adjustment.

[champagne612]

Originally Posted by henryr

pretty car but if i recall correctly that (both?) - the burgundy one has some sort of "history"

btw - i've been kicking around selling mine..... i can't guarantee that i'll actually accept an offer as i am coming to the realization that the 550/575 cars are the best bang for the buck for the money

thinking of selling the 575...... - FerrariChat.com

Henryr - some of us can't / won't log into that site ... mind posting a picture here

[Barry]

Dennis
Welcome to Ferrari Life. Good luck with the 575 / 360 hunt.

[kubes]

Henry -- is this the thread you're referring to?

Thoughts on this 575 in Florida? - FerrariChat.com

But I couldn't find anything on driver's door, paint thickness, etc.

This burgundy color 575 is actually only 1 VIN number removed from the NART Blue one I am looking at. Black Horse Motors also owned this one for awhile. I heard BHM sold it for $108K (this one also had carbon fiber and FHP), and then it went to Perry Motorcars where doctorj was considering buying it. The BHM guy said he was going to buy it back from Perry but it got sold to another dealer who supposedly subsequently sold it for $130K. Don't have any proof on that though...

[kubes]

Barry -- thanks for the welcome.

Taz -- thanks for the detailed reply. A couple of things in response:

1. The VIN of the burgundy car Harry refers to is ZFFBV55A920130078, just in case you do have a record for that car in your database.

2. Regarding price/consignment hypothesis -- it's a bit more complicated. The dealer listed on the BHM website (Darren) actually sold this car in 4/09 to a gentleman for $130K (supposedly). Subsequently this gentleman decided to get a dealer's license and founded BHM in partnership with Darren. This car may technically still be the gentleman's car, but BHM is offering it. So not your typical dealer's inventory piece, buy low/sell high. Consequently I think the economics are a little strange, leading to this relatively high price. Not sure how much wiggle room there is, but I guess I might find out...

[henryr]

yes, that looks like the thread on the burgundy car...

there should also be a thread on the blue car. after re-reading the thread - i want to say it's the blue car with the paint - door work / issue. i recall reading something that the dealer acknowledge paint / body work.

i'd flat out ask em..........

[henryr]

i think the commentary on the blue car is buried in another thread.... i'm searching to see if i can find

[kubes]

Henry -- I think I found the thread on the blue car:

Looking for any information on this 02 575M - FerrariChat.com

Unfortunately the pic that had been posted has been removed. I'm very curious and would love to see this pic. And I'm a little shocked that this wasn't mentioned to me. Neither the carfax nor the autocheck mention any damage, but there is that period of missing service history. Wondering if that was deliberately concealed... If this is the case, I'm a little disgusted...

Thanks so much for pointing this out though. Really quite amazing how this community can help keep others from falling for bad deals. Thanks a million!

[tazandjan]

Dennis- To be honest with you, I would rather have Henry's car, which has been spoiled and has FHP/HGTC upgrades on it.

If accidents do not make a police report, nothing will show on CarFax.

[henryr]

Originally Posted by kubes

Henry -- I think I found the thread on the blue car:

Looking for any information on this 02 575M - FerrariChat.com

after re reading the thread - it looks to be much more significant than i thought. notice wolfturbo's post to walk away......

major accident damage beyond is a diff story vs some minor paintwork.

[kubes]

Henry -- I agree, from the post on the other site it sounds like the damage was far more extensive. Wolfturbo originally posted a picture of the damage, but unfortunately that photo has since been removed. I have PM'd Wolfturbo to see if he still has the pic -- if he does and sends it, I will post here.

In the meantime, the dealer wrote back separately (before I could ask him about the paint/damage) in response to some other questions I had posed him. Here's are two extracts:

In April 2009 just after delivery the car was spun off the road into some hedges and received cosmetic damage to many of the panels. The owner didn't want to look at the car so he had the car taken away and said to do whatever it took to make it correct again. It was taken to a recognized shop and the car had a complete restorative respray to better than factory finish. When the glass was removed for the repaint any seals that in any way looked dry were replaced. The rear quarter seals are only available with new glass. The front under tray was also replaced because of scratches and cracks.

I didn't see the car after it went off the road personally as it was taken straight to a shop to be repainted but from what I understand it was mostly cosmetic. The owner was for the want of a better word "sick" to his stomach as he had only had the car a few days at most. It was a "no expense spared, bring it back to better than factory" cosmetic restoration. He didn't want any chance that the new paint would be in any way different from the original paint of panels not affected. It was very important that there was no difference in color or how the metallic paint laid on the each panel.

Personally, I am a little disappointed that (a) there were no service records provided for this work, and (b) that the dealer didn't mention it when we discussed the paint when I was there in person. Also, given this damage, I think his asking price is far too high and he will never get close to it unless he finds someone naive who doesn't do his homework.

Very disappointed here. I'll continue to post as I find out more info.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by kubes

Henry -- I agree, from the post on the other site it sounds like the damage was far more extensive. Wolfturbo originally posted a picture of the damage, but unfortunately that photo has since been removed. I have PM'd Wolfturbo to see if he still has the pic -- if he does and sends it, I will post here.

In the meantime, the dealer wrote back separately (before I could ask him about the paint/damage) in response to some other questions I had posed him. Here's are two extracts:

In April 2009 just after delivery the car was spun off the road into some hedges and received cosmetic damage to many of the panels. The owner didn't want to look at the car so he had the car taken away and said to do whatever it took to make it correct again. It was taken to a recognized shop and the car had a complete restorative respray to better than factory finish. When the glass was removed for the repaint any seals that in any way looked dry were replaced. The rear quarter seals are only available with new glass. The front under tray was also replaced because of scratches and cracks.

I didn't see the car after it went off the road personally as it was taken straight to a shop to be repainted but from what I understand it was mostly cosmetic. The owner was for the want of a better word "sick" to his stomach as he had only had the car a few days at most. It was a "no expense spared, bring it back to better than factory" cosmetic restoration. He didn't want any chance that the new paint would be in any way different from the original paint of panels not affected. It was very important that there was no difference in color or how the metallic paint laid on the each panel.

Personally, I am a little disappointed that (a) there were no service records provided for this work, and (b) that the dealer didn't mention it when we discussed the paint when I was there in person. Also, given this damage, I think his asking price is far too high and he will never get close to it unless he finds someone naive who doesn't do his homework.

Very disappointed here. I'll continue to post as I find out more info.

Having spent a lot of years in dealerships a story like that needs a notorized sworn statement from the Pope and extensive photo documentation to get me to be a believer.


If someone actually takes it at face value I have a big orange bridge for sale.

[henryr]

sucks to be a used car salesman in the internet age..................

[champagne612]

Originally Posted by henryr

sucks to be a used car salesman in the internet age..................

I don't think so - dealers can advertise and do business within a click.

There is a lot of value to guys here that track Ferrari's and even more so the guys who help out owners with issues.

It's too bad some of those salesman haven't caught on to a long term relationship status.