[lucca brazzi]

i wanted to ask if you well schooled gentlemen feel that the 308/328 series could be considered vintage,and if not ,as more time passes, will they eventually become vintage ? thanks Brett

[Neonzapper]

The 308/328 is a collectible car which has continued to increase in value annually.

[brettgagnon]

To be honest, it will depend on the version of the 308/328 and the production #s (imho), such a wide variation from first to last:

308 GTB Glass: Yes
308 GTB Steel: good chance
308 GTS: above average chance
308 GTBi/GTSi: i am going to say no
308 GTB QV: average chance
308 GTS QV: below average
328 GTB: good chance
328 GTS: below average

[barcheta]

No its a classic ferrari though. Vintage.... I don't think so. Mostly the vintage moniker is tied to the Enzo era pre-fiat cars. Basically, you have three eras. Modern, Classic and Vintage.... with each being tied to one particular entity. The first being Enzo, the second being Fiat/Agnelli and the third being Montezemolo. Could that change eventually.... perhaps.

[Brian]

I think considering the fact that they are already over 30 years old they have to be considered vintage.


As far as collectable? Some say no because too many were made. In the first 18 months of production Ford produced over 1,000,000 Mustangs and they are collectable. It will never have the value of a 250 GTO but their future value is good.

For the die hard early cars guys, they just need to remember that the company would just be a short chapter in the history of the automobile if it were not for the 308. It saved the company and gave them a product to sell during very tough times. There would not be a Ferrari company now if not for that car. In that sense it can be argued that it is the most important car in the history of Ferrari.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by barcheta

No its a classic ferrari though. Vintage.... I don't think so. Mostly the vintage moniker is tied to the Enzo era pre-fiat cars. Basically, you have three eras. Modern, Classic and Vintage.... with each being tied to one particular entity. The first being Enzo, the second being Fiat/Agnelli and the third being Montezemolo. Could that change eventually.... perhaps.

The vintage term is not a moving target. The 250's were considered vintage cars cars before they were 30 years old. Just because to some an 8 cylinder car does not really represent what Ferrari is all about does not make it so. I remember as a young car guy driving an all original 1940 Ford. It was without doubt a vintage car. That was in 1972. An early 308 is older than that Ford was.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by brettgagnon

To be honest, it will depend on the version of the 308/328 and the production #s (imho), such a wide variation from first to last:

308 GTB Glass: Yes
308 GTB Steel: good chance
308 GTS: above average chance
308 GTBi/GTSi: i am going to say no
308 GTB QV: average chance
308 GTS QV: below average
328 GTB: good chance
328 GTS: below average

You cannot call a California Spider a vintage car and not call a Pininfarina Coupe vintage. Popularity, value or lack thereof make no difference.


Those are all vintage or none of them are.

And as far as value a 328 GTB was not popular in 1988 and it is not popular now. They are a harder sell and for less money. There were almost as many built as all Daytonas and have not shown any sign of an upward trend yet (compared to the GTS) and the newest car is 22 years old. I doubt that will change in a big way.

[lucca brazzi]

Originally Posted by Brian

I think considering the fact that they are already over 30 years old they have to be considered vintage.


As far as collectable? Some say no because too many were made. In the first 18 months of production Ford produced over 1,000,000 Mustangs and they are collectable. It will never have the value of a 250 GTO but their future value is good.

For the die hard early cars guys, they just need to remember that the company would just be a short chapter in the history of the automobile if it were not for the 308. It saved the company and gave them a product to sell during very tough times. There would not be a Ferrari company now if not for that car. In that sense it can be argued that it is the most important car in the history of Ferrari.

i have heard what you spoke about concerning the importance of the 308, and you know, you never hear anybody mention that , but its true,a good fact to hold on to and remember.

[barcheta]

Originally Posted by Brian

For the die hard early cars guys, they just need to remember that the company would just be a short chapter in the history of the automobile if it were not for the 308. It saved the company and gave them a product to sell during very tough times. There would not be a Ferrari company now if not for that car. In that sense it can be argued that it is the most important car in the history of Ferrari.

I agree completely no 308... no Ferrari.

Originally Posted by Brian

The vintage term is not a moving target. The 250's were considered vintage cars cars before they were 30 years old. Just because to some an 8 cylinder car does not really represent what Ferrari is all about does not make it so. I remember as a young car guy driving an all original 1940 Ford. It was without doubt a vintage car. That was in 1972. An early 308 is older than that Ford was.

I see your point in terms of age and it makes sense. I was merely relaying those definitions as they were outlined to me.... by several folks. I tend to think of the vintage cars as everything built while Enzo was alive, then modern as everything after his death.

[brettgagnon]

I was putting vintage and collectible together in the same boat.

328's are talked of being the best/mature of the 308-328 series and with sub 1400 GTBs being produced i think there will be a time that collectors will start to look at it as a piece of Ferrari history worth holding. My 2 cents

[Brian]

Originally Posted by barcheta

I was merely relaying those definitions as they were outlined to me.... by several folks. I tend to think of the vintage cars as everything built while Enzo was alive, then modern as everything after his death.

That is the old school anti V8 crowd and their brainwashing.


I am a concours judge and I do that primarily at national level events. I was also always more of a V12 guy but to exclude the V8 cars as being an important part of the history of the company and to not concede they have not achieved vintage status is to ignore history. At the national events it is a real uphill battle top get the old guard to give the cars their due.

If we allowed them to have their way it would permantly freeze at the Daytona.

It is a very real prejudice.

[brettgagnon]

Okay now I may only be entertaining myself here, but let's jump into this with a bit more thought as I continue to sink into the Macallan Whisky Maker's Edition.

The Daytona was mentioned here so let's, for the sake of argument, pull in that beautiful v12 beast's total numbers and compare to another v12.

Total Daytona's built 1383 over 6 years
Total carburated Boxers (365/512) built 1316 over 8 years

Daytona's are selling for roughly 3 times the price of Boxers, there is no rhyme or reason for this that most can see. Gorgeous as they may be, I cannot see a reason why they are considered more of a collector item than a 365 GT4 BB.

So what does this mean for the 308/328 question? maybe very little, on the other hand it shows that total production numbers have some, but not much to do with value in collectors hands. If a Daytona is worth 3 times a Boxer yet more were produced in less time, than that theory is, in some cases, bunk. 308 GTBs ushered in a new era for Ferrari, a profitable/lifeline one. Did many get produced? Yes, just under 2300 were produced over 5+ years (we will just focus on the TB now, as 13 years of production produced such wide differences in cars, think glass GTB to ABS equipped 328). But of those 2300 how many survive and how many are in collector condition? No one knows and part of that may lead to an increase in value for the ones that are in great condition.

Some glass GTBs are already reaching avg Boxer prices which makes no sense since there were 712 made in under 2 years.

All of this to say, we have no idea. Daytona vs Boxer collection alone tells us we have no idea. Will collectors 10 years from now continue to pay hefty premiums for the 712 glass GTBs made in less than 2 years of production over the 2185 steel GTBs produced over 4 years?

The math makes no sense, but how often does $ follow the math in car collecting?

okay back to the scotch, it makes sense

[barcheta]

Originally Posted by Brian

That is the old school anti V8 crowd and their brainwashing.


I am a concours judge and I do that primarily at national level events. I was also always more of a V12 guy but to exclude the V8 cars as being an important part of the history of the company and to not concede they have not achieved vintage status is to ignore history. At the national events it is a real uphill battle top get the old guard to give the cars their due.

If we allowed them to have their way it would permantly freeze at the Daytona.

It is a very real prejudice.

Having been a regional board member and having judged a couple of events myself I know its an uphill battle to get the old guard to agree to much of anything within the FCA. Its not surprising that this sentiment carries through to the class judging and general outlook of certain models versus others. Its refreshing to know though that I'm not the only one who thinks the 308 deserves a little respect for basically saving the company from being just another admired mark that no longer produces cars.

[Boxer]

Depends on how you define the different era of Ferrari production - Enzo, Fiat/Agnelli and Monte as Vintage, Classic, and Modern. Under this definition, no, they will always be classic. What is more difficult to define is what will happen to the early Monte cars in another 10 years. Can a 30 year old 348 still be a "modern" car?

If the question is on collectability and values, of the 308 series, the early glass 308s are already in the collectable category.

[Pete04222]

Originally Posted by Boxer

Depends on how you define the different era of Ferrari production - Enzo, Fiat/Agnelli and Monte as Vintage, Classic, and Modern. Under this definition, no, they will always be classic. What is more difficult to define is what will happen to the early Monte cars in another 10 years. Can a 30 year old 348 still be a "modern" car?

If the question is on collectability and values, of the 308 series, the early glass 308s are already in the collectable category.

The definition is the issue. Antique has a legal definition (in my state it is 25 years old) Classic/Vintage is different. It is subject to interpretation. In the dictionary the words are interchangeable. Classic is defined as serving as a standard of excellence or historically memorable. Vintage is of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality. (yeah, I looked it up. I'm a geek.)

I'm leaning towards the arguments that it is/will be defined by the era. I think they will stay where they are and a 3x8 will always be classic. The current modern cars will stay modern cars, even when they are antiques. When Ferrari enters it's next era it could be "next generation" or "post-modern" or something like that. Or it could be split to early- and late- modern. IMO.

For the collectable, it may be argued that ALL Ferraris are collectables. Just like Pokeman cards or Beanie Babies or something. I think just the term "collectable", to me anyway, means any kind of rarity, exclusivity, desirability or passion to own. "Oh! You've got the Micky Mantle rookie card!" You've got something no one else can get, they don't make them anymore. There's a limited number and when they are gone they are gone. So yeah, I would think any Ferrari not currently in production would be considered a collectable. Honda Accords would never be as they don't meet the criteria I mentioned.

[maurodev]

Hi all,

there is a worldwide organization which disciplines the matter, the FIVA:

"The Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens (FIVA) was founded in 1966 as the international federation of historic vehicle clubs. FIVA has over one million members in 50 countries (www.fiva.org). FIVA’s principal objective is to further the preservation and use of historic vehicles, which by their nature, are owned by enthusiasts and preserved in historically correct condition. Historic vehicle are kept for their technical, cultural and historical contribution to our common heritage and those which are in road-use are well maintained and not generally used as everyday transport. A recent FIVA survey indicates that within the EU the most commonly accepted age threshold for historic vehicles is 30 years."

The Italian chapter of FIVA is ASI (Automotoclub Storico Italiano), which has a different threshold: 20 years (but the vehicle has to be certified by ASI).

The Italian State recognizes ASI's certification of historicity and the similar certifications granted by three official Registers: FIAT, Lancia and Alfa Romeo. The certification is important to obtain advantages in subscribing insurance policies, paying the yearly ownership tax, etc. It is also important for buyers of vintage cars, being a proof the vehicle is (or at least was at the momnt of the certification) is original.

ciao
Mauro

[wetpet]

we live in a bubble. 7k cars, hell 20k cars are not very much. as brian rightly pointed out, the ford #'s dwarf ferrari production. Simple math will tell you EVERY ferrari is now and will be in the future "collectible" and they will all become vintage if they are not now. Simple equation. If more people want it then numbers exist, it is collectible. There will always be an increasing # of people that will want the 308/328 and the stock will always be decreasing. will that lead to higher prices? Probably. Of course deep recessions may skew that periodically.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by maurodev

Hi all,

there is a worldwide organization which disciplines the matter, the FIVA:

"The Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens (FIVA) was founded in 1966 as the international federation of historic vehicle clubs. FIVA has over one million members in 50 countries (www.fiva.org). FIVA’s principal objective is to further the preservation and use of historic vehicles, which by their nature, are owned by enthusiasts and preserved in historically correct condition. Historic vehicle are kept for their technical, cultural and historical contribution to our common heritage and those which are in road-use are well maintained and not generally used as everyday transport. A recent FIVA survey indicates that within the EU the most commonly accepted age threshold for historic vehicles is 30 years."

The Italian chapter of FIVA is ASI (Automotoclub Storico Italiano), which has a different threshold: 20 years (but the vehicle has to be certified by ASI

The Italian State recognizes ASI's certification of historicity and the similar certifications granted by three official Registers: FIAT, Lancia and Alfa Romeo. The certification is important to obtain advantages in subscribing insurance policies, paying the yearly ownership tax, etc. It is also important for buyers of vintage cars, being a proof the vehicle is (or at least was at the momnt of the certification) is original.

ciao
Mauro

FIVA is not even on the radar screen here.

[Neonzapper]

Originally Posted by Brian

FIVA is not even on the radar screen here.

Not only that, but eras have already been established here in America. First the Brass Era (introduction of the automobile through 1919), then the Vintage Era (1920-1930), then the Classic Era (1931-1950's), then the Muscle Car Era (1960's and '70s), then the Modern Car Era. Of course there are groups within these, such as Exotics, Orphans, etc. Even Michael Sheehan divides Ferrari into eras (Enzo, Pre-Fiat and Fiat).

There were MORE 360s built than the run of 12,004 308s. Most of the 308s don't exist anymore, but brainwashing tells us they were the most produced and somehow they all still exist.

Wetpet summed it up rather simply, and he is correct.

[maurodev]

Originally Posted by Brian

FIVA is not even on the radar screen here.

I see...so it is like 'real' football vs your 'odd' version of it!

Ciao
Mauro