[Rosso]

Nice Bob! You must've had alot of fun. Sucks about the transportation though that you've gotta take the train to all of your destinations.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Nice Bob! You must've had alot of fun. Sucks about the transportation though that you've gotta take the train to all of your destinations.

Are you kidding? This is something America needs to discover. Imagine a bullet train to say....Yosimite from you. It will take 2 1/2 hrs and you can read the whole time, do work etc. Also you know exactly when you will arrive (give or take 10minutes) no delays like planes. Now even better is if you have a train from your house to the bullet train. Never have to worry about being late or traffic.

I say, save the driving for the track and weekend spins. Otherwise give me a train.

PS: Tokyo has what I think is the best train system in the world, hence my bias. Peak hours every 3min off peak every 6min. You always have a train almost no wait.

['75 308 GT4 (Peter)]

Originally Posted by Enzo250GTO

Are you kidding? This is something America needs to discover...

Although idyllic, it will never happen. I've seen so many mass-transit systems both here in Canada and the U.S. and it just doesn't seem to have any affect on the mindset of people here. North Americans love their cars and planes and will travel distances with that as a first choice. In reality, the automobile is an efficient way to travel intracity, or would be if the automotive infrastructure would be updated to suit. Monorails/Speedtrains are dreams... Unfortunately.

['75 308 GT4 (Peter)]

I'll add, that the reason I see mass-transit systems that don't live up, or fail altogether is solely based on the people who initiate and run the projects: The city councilors/mayors/district managers/members of parliment/etc. who do it to either get re-elected (because the transit lines run through their districts), and/or to line their pockets... Totally. I've seen it time and again.

Sorry for straying off-topic/ranting.

[Andrew]

Its OK, I started the off-topic discussion and will move part of it now. It was my fault.

['75 308 GT4 (Peter)]

Originally Posted by Enzo250GTO

...It was my fault.

No, no, its my fault because I started the negative-talk about mass-transit. Thanks for moving it here, as it really didn't belong in Dr. Bob's thread.

[Dj Dirk]

Originally Posted by '75 308 GT4 (Peter)

No, no, its my fault because I started the negative-talk about mass-transit. Thanks for moving it here, as it really didn't belong in Dr. Bob's thread.

djee, make up your minds guys :lol:
who's fault is it now?
i vote that it's bob's fault :P :wink: :green:

[Dr. Bob]

I vote Dirk's fault

Anyway, the trainsystem isn't that great here. There are countrys that are much better. Aspecially in big cities like andrew mentioned. ost cities have Metro's departing every 5 min, and 30-45 minutes later you're on the other side of the city (maybe not in Tokyo, a little bit bigger) I love that transit, but most important, how is the transportation outside the city? I live in the north section of holland, and need to go to the mid-section, now isn't holland that big, but that is the point. If you have that in America, you nee planes, because the distances are much bigger. Trains will take hours, even when it's a bullettrain.

[wolfeman]

I both agree and disagree with Bob,

This is such a fast paced world now that people will almost opt for the fastest mode of transportation they can get. "Time is Money"

And it can't be DJ's fault, anyone from a country that Belgium waffles are named after CAN'T be wrong!:green:

[Andrew]

wolfman,

nice comment about the waffles. I never looked at it that way.

Bob,
I agree a train from NY to LA would take forever. However give me a train that goes from NY to Washington D.C. or the likes any day of the week. The time to goto the airport (check in 2 hours before, get the taxi, etc) makes the total trip longer. For my example, San Francisco to Yosimite there isn't an option for plane (that I know of) and a train would clearly get there faster than a car.

I can board a train that is 50 meters from my house. In 25min I'm at Tokyo St. In 2 1/2 hours I'm in Kyoto. I could never get there in 3 hours by plane (45 min to airport, 2 hrs for checkin, 1 hrs flight, 40 deboard plane).

By car? Hell no. Traffic alone will take me 1 hour just to get to Shibuya so I can catch the highway, if there is an accident make it 2 hours. For distances up to say 200-250 miles I think the train is best. After that plane takes over.

Then there is cost. If I was back home a train from my city to Chicago would have been awesome. 2 hr train ride and your downtown (that is a trip I would make a few times a year). Currently it takes 6 hr by car or 1hr by plane, but the chicago airport is no anywhere near where you want to shop.

IMO, trains would be very beneficial in the U.S. Why limit your options? The only negative effect would be on the airline industry (which probably silk lines congress's pocket to stop the trains).

[Dj Dirk]

Originally Posted by wolfeman

And it can't be DJ's fault, anyone from a country that Belgium waffles are named after CAN'T be wrong!:green:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :green:

thenyou should try our beers & chocolate's
then you will want to move here :wink:

[wolfeman]

I have tried Belgium chocolate, it's great. But sadly I have not had the opertunity to try the beer. it's impossible to find over here.

[Dj Dirk]

Originally Posted by wolfeman

I have tried Belgium chocolate, it's great. But sadly I have not had the opertunity to try the beer. it's impossible to find over here.

ooh yeah, that's right you are a friend of peter.
you can tell peter that i will not send over beer :wink: :P

[gthomas]

Trains compete with planes only going 500 miles. So 500x500=250,000sq mi. If we went to a regional system, it could work. Here in Florida, we are building a high speed system that will link the eastern coast, with the gulf coast. http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/2_projectstatus.jsp Even though the Japanese high speed system is great, it is/was much more costly than figures have stated. There was a long article on this when Clinton wanted to socialize everything. There are other alternatives.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by gthomas

Trains compete with planes only going 500 miles. So 500x500=250,000sq mi. If we went to a regional system, it could work. Here in Florida, we are building a high speed system that will link the eastern coast, with the gulf coast. http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/2_projectstatus.jsp Even though the Japanese high speed system is great, it is/was much more costly than figures have stated. There was a long article on this when Clinton wanted to socialize everything. There are other alternatives.

That is a great idea Florida has, and it will help the state beyond belief. Imagine the tourist now in Miami, they don't want to drive to Disney World and vice versa. If a train can do it in 2 hours and they can relax, then they will (assuming tickets are affordable). Very cool.

[4kids3fish]

Once the car-habit is well established it is nigh impossible to break, IMHO. Just the convenience of it all, even if it takes much longer, plus you have your own personal space all the way. Unless you're well located like Enzo (50m to train), you need to take a bus or short car trip just to get to the station, and once in the car it's tempting to stay there.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see trains take over (except for sports cars, of course ), but unless the infrastructure is put in early and the city grows-up with it as a way of life it is very hard to get it happening. One way is to impose big levies a la Singapore to deter car use.

I guess Enzo is talking inter-city while I've mainly talked intra-city. Australia has often looked at high-speed rail links along the east coast (Melbourne / Canberra / Sydney / Brisbane) as the hops here are 500 - 1000 miles max. Whenever the issue hots up the airlines start discounting fares!!

[Rosso]

I never had anything against trains in the first place. I was actually quite the railfan before I became a Tifoso. I'm quite knowledgeable in rail travel around the world. It is one of the more efficient ways to get around indeed. Networks like they have in Europe, and as Andrew said in Japan, are far better laid out than here in the States. Amtrak, here is really a shame and in a poor state. They play second fiddle to freight transportation and due to that, they cannot get a good rail transportation infrastructure up and running. Trains running late are the norm and it's really not popular with people here, as most perfer taking the plane or driving, even for short distances like between SF and LA.

Short trips like that would normally be taken by rail in Europe, be it the TGV in France, Eurostar from GB to France/Belgium, ICE in Germany[The Netherlands I believe also has their version of the ICE3(my favorite of the high speed trains)], or AVE in Spain, as well as the bullet trains in Japan. Most of these systems run on much tighter schedules and are quite the reliable form of transportation in their respected countries. Most of them built completley new rail networks to run and are well funded and reliable. The DB in Germany invested in completely new rlines for it's ICE system in it's inception in the 90's. Here in the states, the government and private investors are not willing to invest that sort of money into a rail network here and thus we are stuck with Amtrak, which is really on the verge of collapse(I believe they filed for bankruptcy or almost did).

Another big difference is most of these trains run using electric overhead cantenary or 3rd rail systems which is so much cleaner than the diesel we are forced to use(an excpetion in the Northeast Corridor with the Acela and other commuter rail in the area in New York, New Jersey, Massachussets, etc.). Many of the plans put forth for high speed rail transportation in the US has gotten caught up in the beaureaucracy at both state and national levels, even with attempts of using the existing infrastructure to create high speed rail service(an acception being the Acela run by Amtrak in the Northeast corridor, but that also ran into many problems before it finally got running).

Commuter rail is not a large thing here, but seems to be catching on a little. Nothing like elsewhere, but we've at least got some privately run rail networks around urban centers that are doing alright, like the ACE in the South Bay and into the Valley, CalTrain out of SF and down to San Jose, Sounder up in Seattle, looking to expand I beleive, and some various networks in the northeast who are/have been doing well.

And Andrew, it really sounds like you've got it good with the train so close to your house. That really makes it much easier and so accesible for you. Must be nice to take a relaxing ride on the train into Tokyo instead of driving your car and getting caught up in traffic. I see where you're comming from.

[Stradale]

I don't mind travelling by train in Europe. It should be fun. But I have to have a lot of time though. I would love to do the Eurostar from London to Paris. Because I know the train station is right in the city. Have you tried taking a cab from Charles De Gaulle to the city. First they'll kill you with the fare and secondly it takes ages.

[wolfeman]

I once took a cab fron the New Orleans airpot to my hotel in the French quarter, it should have been a 20 minute ride, we made it in 11, I gave the driver a $25 dollar tip for not killing me! The constant weaving thru the multiple lanes, the fact that the gas pedal was on the floor the whole time except 2 occasions, fisrt was when he almost rear ended a cop which he then passed, and when he let me off at the hotel. I have faced death many times but this guy scared the hell outta me...

I hope they put a train in down there, but there really is'nt a place to put it.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Rosso

And Andrew, it really sounds like you've got it good with the train so close to your house. That really makes it much easier and so accesible for you. Must be nice to take a relaxing ride on the train into Tokyo instead of driving your car and getting caught up in traffic. I see where you're comming from.

The beauty of it all is this is the norm if your within one of Tokyo's 23 wards. There are I believe over 20 subway lines. Then the surface lines are too many to count (probably 50+). The worst walk for most is 15-20 minutes which is quickly curable by a bicycle.

Don't get me wrong, I love cars! And will always have one.

I know some of Tokyo's situation is due to land (they can't spread out like the USA) so dense population calls for a train. I'll take some pictures of the train network and post them. I think japanese should be very proud and it is something to marvel. I also hope in the future more following in their steps.

One thing Tokyo's urban development of the past lacked was planning. millions of 4 floor buildings lining the street and all of them are only 15-20m deep. Mesh the two together (say chicago's planning with Tokyo's overkill rail system) and you'll have something kickass. Tokyo could use some large waterfront parks.