Just seen this 365 come up for sale in Switzerland. Looks very nice (although reality could be different up close).

FERRARI GT4/BB, Occasion, Benzin, 53'465 km,CHF 178'000 - AutoScout24

Power output on the 365 is quoted as 380...anyone know what the actual figure was/is?

Given that so few 365s were made, the prices do seem pretty reasonable (especially if you look at its predecessor).

[champagne612]

Great looking Ferrari with all the correct DNA.

[212Export]

Spencer, I have seen and driven that car 3 years ago when it was with the previous owner. I already talked yesterday to the present owner which I know as well.
Now, the present owner (as the one before) are very nice and careful, knowledgeable persons. When I drove the car 3 years ago, it was fast, great on cams and had the steel tubes braking system. Veeeery efficient but not homologated in Switzerland (you would need to have it examined and prooved by the Swiss Strassenverkehrsamt). The car still has those tubes.
The car has a wrong front grille, wrong front ventilators, wrong air ducts/filters above the intake, a modern radio in the cabin, and some small unnecessary painted details wrongly. Also the present owner told me that he will take care for slightly oil leaking cam axle points and give it a full service including the belts change.
This car original was Pozzi blue (great BB colour btw).
Now I know this sounds like a lot of downs but it is not. I have driven 4 365 BB in my live and this one was by far the best running of them all. Its a rocket "on cam". With the car comes a huge file of restauration material/photos as the whole body, chassis, engine was restored about 10 years ago. Additionally the interior has been restored as well. Give it a little love towards restoring full originality and you have a great BB.

Thats all I can say AND that the seller is very trustfull. Good luck !

[tazandjan]

Spencer- Actual hp figure from the owner's manual is 344 hp SAE net. Daytona is quoted at 352 hp SAE net. You can download a BB owners manual from ferraridatabase.com.

Originally Posted by 212Export

Spencer, I have seen and driven that car 3 years ago when it was with the previous owner. I already talked yesterday to the present owner which I know as well.
Now, the present owner (as the one before) are very nice and careful, knowledgeable persons. When I drove the car 3 years ago, it was fast, great on cams and had the steel tubes braking system. Veeeery efficient but not homologated in Switzerland (you would need to have it examined and prooved by the Swiss Strassenverkehrsamt). The car still has those tubes.
The car has a wrong front grille, wrong front ventilators, wrong air ducts/filters above the intake, a modern radio in the cabin, and some small unnecessary painted details wrongly. Also the present owner told me that he will take care for slightly oil leaking cam axle points and give it a full service including the belts change.
This car original was Pozzi blue (great BB colour btw).
Now I know this sounds like a lot of downs but it is not. I have driven 4 365 BB in my live and this one was by far the best running of them all. Its a rocket "on cam". With the car comes a huge file of restauration material/photos as the whole body, chassis, engine was restored about 10 years ago. Additionally the interior has been restored as well. Give it a little love towards restoring full originality and you have a great BB.

Thats all I can say AND that the seller is very trustfull. Good luck !

Thanks for that. Sounds very interesting. I wish this had been on the market before I bought the CS as I don't think I could justify changing cars so quickly to my wife (and even for me it would be too soon). I wonder if my neighbor would rent me his other spare space.....ahhhh...better get such thoughts out of my mind or I will really be in trouble!!

Out of interest, how much do you think it would cost to bring it back to full originality (including painting blue)?

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

Thanks for that. Sounds very interesting. I wish this had been on the market before I bought the CS as I don't think I could justify changing cars so quickly to my wife (and even for me it would be too soon). I wonder if my neighbor would rent me his other spare space.....ahhhh...better get such thoughts out of my mind or I will really be in trouble!!

Out of interest, how much do you think it would cost to bring it back to full originality (including painting blue)?

A great paint job these days in Switzerland (Swiss hourly specialist wages) would cost you around CHF 25' - 30'000. All the rest probably Swiss Franc 5'000.

Why would you want change from the CS to the 365 BB, thats a compleately different thing ? Are you unhappy with the CS ? Or because you generally lust for a classic ?

Having both and the 365 BB would bring you already much nearer financially into the region of a F40.

Originally Posted by 212Export

A great paint job these days in Switzerland (Swiss hourly specialist wages) would cost you around CHF 25' - 30'000. All the rest probably Swiss Franc 5'000.

Why would you want change from the CS to the 365 BB, thats a compleately different thing ? Are you unhappy with the CS ? Or because you generally lust for a classic ?

Having both and the 365 BB would bring you already much nearer financially into the region of a F40.

A respray was just done as part of the restauration so probably doesn't make sense to do it again so soon. Still, a great pity the prior owner didn't go back to the original colour (Pozzi blue would be stunning).

I am very happy with the CS but the 365 also appeals to me a lot and would have been an alternative to the CS (had I seen a good one available in Switzerland). I do think owning a classic Ferrari would be a very different experience. What concerns me about the CS is that it only really comes alive when you give it its head...which is problematic in Switzerland with the low speed limits and income-related fines. I feel that with a classic there is potentially a lot of pleasure at lower speeds (because it has a much more mechanical feel). I also think that reaction from other people is different. With the newer cars you can come across as a bit "flash" whereas a classic engenders much more sympathy. Maybe I'm wrong on those points but I'd be interested to find out.

I think it is perhaps a case of the (potentially) right car coming onto the market at the wrong time (for me).

I spoke to the owner. He seemed interested in taking my CS...but I don't think that interested in waiting until next year to do so (as I want to keep the CS at least for one season). In any case, he said that Niki Hasler is coming to look at it this afternoon and he really wants the car (apparently he sold it before) and Niki has a few 430s so I expect they will do a deal. No doubt it will reappear on the market at much more than CHF 178'000.

I'm not sure where I am with the F40. I was looking at one recently at Foitek, Urdorf (sold for CHF 530'000 with 4'000 km). It is such a great looking car. Will reconsider next year what I want to do (and what I think I should or should not do, which is perhaps the deciding factor).

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

A respray was just done as part of the restauration so probably doesn't make sense to do it again so soon. Still, a great pity the prior owner didn't go back to the original colour (Pozzi blue would be stunning).

I am very happy with the CS but the 365 also appeals to me a lot and would have been an alternative to the CS (had I seen a good one available in Switzerland). I do think owning a classic Ferrari would be a very different experience. What concerns me about the CS is that it only really comes alive when you give it its head...which is problematic in Switzerland with the low speed limits and income-related fines. I feel that with a classic there is potentially a lot of pleasure at lower speeds (because it has a much more mechanical feel). I also think that reaction from other people is different. With the newer cars you can come across as a bit "flash" whereas a classic engenders much more sympathy. Maybe I'm wrong on those points but I'd be interested to find out.

I think it is perhaps a case of the (potentially) right car coming onto the market at the wrong time (for me).

I spoke to the owner. He seemed interested in taking my CS...but I don't think that interested in waiting until next year to do so (as I want to keep the CS at least for one season). In any case, he said that Niki Hasler is coming to look at it this afternoon and he really wants the car (apparently he sold it before) and Niki has a few 430s so I expect they will do a deal. No doubt it will reappear on the market at much more than CHF 178'000.

I'm not sure where I am with the F40. I was looking at one recently at Foitek, Urdorf (sold for CHF 530'000 with 4'000 km). It is such a great looking car. Will reconsider next year what I want to do (and what I think I should or should not do, which is perhaps the deciding factor).

Understood, you may be right about the peoples reaction to modern compared to classic cars at least i made the same experience, however I do not care personally and never would depend my car buying decision on "what others think".

Interestingly that 365 BB was on the last Gstaad auction of Bonhams where it did not sell for Swiss Franc 140'000, in the same state as today. Its a great car.

Regarding your CS experience in Switzerland: One of the problems in the Swiss region you live is the fact that you need to drive quite a bit to get open roads (as I understand) whereas in my region near the french border in the Swiss "lake district", I'm in the green right away and within 45 minutes, the wide open french roads are there, really more enjoyable than the "Zurich" area.
Engine wise the Stradale needs to be runned up the rpm's to explode its power, whereas with, lets say the F40, the acceleration Turbo-feel comes much earlier. The F50 is more similar to the stradale but stronger and the mechanical feelings (kind like in a classic) are sensible from the first moment on even on low rpm's. And yes, when driving classic as a Stradale comparison, its not important at all to be fast, also here, you feel the car wonderfully and get all those senses from the first turn of the crankshaft.

Originally Posted by 212Export

Understood, you may be right about the peoples reaction to modern compared to classic cars at least i made the same experience, however I do not care personally and never would depend my car buying decision on "what others think".

Interestingly that 365 BB was on the last Gstaad auction of Bonhams where it did not sell for Swiss Franc 140'000, in the same state as today. Its a great car.

Regarding your CS experience in Switzerland: One of the problems in the Swiss region you live is the fact that you need to drive quite a bit to get open roads (as I understand) whereas in my region near the french border in the Swiss "lake district", I'm in the green right away and within 45 minutes, the wide open french roads are there, really more enjoyable than the "Zurich" area.
Engine wise the Stradale needs to be runned up the rpm's to explode its power, whereas with, lets say the F40, the acceleration Turbo-feel comes much earlier. The F50 is more similar to the stradale but stronger and the mechanical feelings (kind like in a classic) are sensible from the first moment on even on low rpm's. And yes, when driving classic as a Stradale comparison, its not important at all to be fast, also here, you feel the car wonderfully and get all those senses from the first turn of the crankshaft.

I wouldn't base my buying decisions on other people's opinions but if I had a choice between cars that I liked and one got a generally positive response and one didn't it might influence me.

Where I live it is difficult to find decent roads. There are some but I find that I end up driving the same ones each time I go out, which is a bit boring. There are the mountain passes within around about an hour and a half but that means going out for a long drive (plus at weekends the roads are busy and hidden speed cameras).

Sometimes I think I should go in another direction - like a classic Alfa Romeo or Lancia, which would be much, much slower.

The seller did mention that the BB didn't sell at auction. Why do you think that was? Because it wasn't publicised enough? Wrong audience? At CHF 140'000 it would have been a real bargain.

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

I wouldn't base my buying decisions on other people's opinions but if I had a choice between cars that I liked and one got a generally positive response and one didn't it might influence me.

Where I live it is difficult to find decent roads. There are some but I find that I end up driving the same ones each time I go out, which is a bit boring. There are the mountain passes within around about an hour and a half but that means going out for a long drive (plus at weekends the roads are busy and hidden speed cameras).

Sometimes I think I should go in another direction - like a classic Alfa Romeo or Lancia, which would be much, much slower.

The seller did mention that the BB didn't sell at auction. Why do you think that was? Because it wasn't publicised enough? Wrong audience? At CHF 140'000 it would have been a real bargain.

Spencer, we will never know what a reason for a "no sale at auction" was. Part of your arguments or all together ? Probably the high commission rate for Bonhams for items below CHF 150'000 ?
If I may say, you sound a little disappointed about your driving prospects and the speed cameras. I know the swiss authorities are harsh and speed cameras more frequent in your high population area than in mine very low population area. I know quite some people from the Zürich who sold their cars because of that. I can not find an answer for you, but what you mentioned would probably solve your mental "twist". Get a classic Ferrari, 12 cylinder, lots of people appreciation, money well invested, lots of joy, no need for speed to get the best out of it and if you take a 2+2, you will be able to take your family with you, as this often is a centerpoint timewise to decide to go for a drive or not (timewise). When I had my 250 GTE 2+2 we put the knapsack, the back hanger to take my daughter on my back while hiking, the hiking shoes, the rain sportscoats food, drinks and all else in the trunk and drove with it to the mountains for hiking. Everybody was pleased, we hiked and I drove the car. Nothing to replace that.
If you have not so good feelings about the CS usage in your case then ask for a deal against the 365 BB or a classic 2+2. They are great.

Originally Posted by 212Export

Spencer, we will never know what a reason for a "no sale at auction" was. Part of your arguments or all together ? Probably the high commission rate for Bonhams for items below CHF 150'000 ?
If I may say, you sound a little disappointed about your driving prospects and the speed cameras. I know the swiss authorities are harsh and speed cameras more frequent in your high population area than in mine very low population area. I know quite some people from the Zürich who sold their cars because of that. I can not find an answer for you, but what you mentioned would probably solve your mental "twist". Get a classic Ferrari, 12 cylinder, lots of people appreciation, money well invested, lots of joy, no need for speed to get the best out of it and if you take a 2+2, you will be able to take your family with you, as this often is a centerpoint timewise to decide to go for a drive or not (timewise). When I had my 250 GTE 2+2 we put the knapsack, the back hanger to take my daughter on my back while hiking, the hiking shoes, the rain sportscoats food, drinks and all else in the trunk and drove with it to the mountains for hiking. Everybody was pleased, we hiked and I drove the car. Nothing to replace that.
If you have not so good feelings about the CS usage in your case then ask for a deal against the 365 BB or a classic 2+2. They are great.

I got flashed by a mobile camera a week ago, which perhaps explains my mood. It wasn't in the CS though. Went out very early on the Saturday morning in the CS and had a brilliant drive. Was going to repeat it on the Sunday and the weather forecast was for sun in the morning but rain later. However, as I drove out of the garage at 6:00 am it had already started raining....so I went back in and swapped to the 993. I took a sightly different route and went down a road I didn't know. It really was in the middle of nowhere and I doubt more than 100 cars drive down it a day...so I was not expecting a mobile camera. I did see it but very late (as it was hidden behind a tree). I wasn't going that fast but as you know, you only need to be doing 110 kmh (which is pretty much the legal speed in the UK on such roads) to get a big fine and a ban. So now waiting very anxiously for a letter to arrive in the post.....

I will see what happens and take it from there. But has reinforced my thoughts that perhaps going classic is the way to go as having a great, fast car is a bit of a liability in Switzerland. I don't understand why speeding is seen as such a crime here. I agree that one should be punished for breaking the law but the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime (in my view). I think dangerous driving (e.g. overtaking on blind bends, driving under the influence of alchohol) should be punished harshly but speed limits are somewhat arbitrary (crossing the border to Germany would see a limit of 100 kmh on the same roads) and the marginal increase in the likelihood of having an accident at 110 compared to 80 (on a straight, empty, dry road with good visibility) must be miniscule. Still, it is what it is.

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

I got flashed by a mobile camera a week ago, which perhaps explains my mood. It wasn't in the CS though. Went out very early on the Saturday morning in the CS and had a brilliant drive. Was going to repeat it on the Sunday and the weather forecast was for sun in the morning but rain later. However, as I drove out of the garage at 6:00 am it had already started raining....so I went back in and swapped to the 993. I took a sightly different route and went down a road I didn't know. It really was in the middle of nowhere and I doubt more than 100 cars drive down it a day...so I was not expecting a mobile camera. I did see it but very late (as it was hidden behind a tree). I wasn't going that fast but as you know, you only need to be doing 110 kmh (which is pretty much the legal speed in the UK on such roads) to get a big fine and a ban. So now waiting very anxiously for a letter to arrive in the post.....

I will see what happens and take it from there. But has reinforced my thoughts that perhaps going classic is the way to go as having a great, fast car is a bit of a liability in Switzerland. I don't understand why speeding is seen as such a crime here. I agree that one should be punished for breaking the law but the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime (in my view). I think dangerous driving (e.g. overtaking on blind bends, driving under the influence of alchohol) should be punished harshly but speed limits are somewhat arbitrary (crossing the border to Germany would see a limit of 100 kmh on the same roads) and the marginal increase in the likelihood of having an accident at 110 compared to 80 (on a straight, empty, dry road with good visibility) must be miniscule. Still, it is what it is.

Spencer, I'm totally with you, really totally. And I have speeding tickets too from time to time, but never lost my driving license while driving for the last 33 years,but thats because of luck also.
Anyway, the Swiss parliament has decided to put too fast driving into the corner of a crime. Their statement is: Somebody who drives too fast is not only underway too fast but accepts the fact that he is willing to endanger the lifes of others. Now thats a big extension of the original viewpoint which brings fast driving into the region of "throwing knives at your kids". Unbeliavable but a fact. Swiss authorities wanted to have the deadtolls on streets 20 years ago from 1200 down to half of that at 600. They succeeded with harsh measurements 5 years later. Then they said (understandibly) 600 are to much lets go for half of that and take even harsher measurements to do so. Well last year they succeeded with "only" 257 dead tolls. And...they want to bring it lower again. Great for a country with 6 million cars and bikes and lots of traffic. But still not enough for them.

My own experience tells me that the danger for speeding is lower with "D" than with "F" or any modern F-car. Thats just a fact for me. If its apliable for others...don't know..but i would guess yes !

Originally Posted by 212Export

Spencer, I'm totally with you, really totally. And I have speeding tickets too from time to time, but never lost my driving license while driving for the last 33 years,but thats because of luck also.
Anyway, the Swiss parliament has decided to put too fast driving into the corner of a crime. Their statement is: Somebody who drives too fast is not only underway too fast but accepts the fact that he is willing to endanger the lifes of others. Now thats a big extension of the original viewpoint which brings fast driving into the region of "throwing knives at your kids". Unbeliavable but a fact. Swiss authorities wanted to have the deadtolls on streets 20 years ago from 1200 down to half of that at 600. They succeeded with harsh measurements 5 years later. Then they said (understandibly) 600 are to much lets go for half of that and take even harsher measurements to do so. Well last year they succeeded with "only" 257 dead tolls. And...they want to bring it lower again. Great for a country with 6 million cars and bikes and lots of traffic. But still not enough for them.

My own experience tells me that the danger for speeding is lower with "D" than with "F" or any modern F-car. Thats just a fact for me. If its apliable for others...don't know..but i would guess yes !

The goal of reducing deaths on the road is a good one. However, there are many factors at play that have led to that reduction: cars are inherently much safer today: both actively, with much better brakes, tyres, ABS, stability controls, etc and passively through air-bags, safety cells, crumple zones and the trend for bigger cars (SUVs), which protect the occupants more. When I compare my wife's Polo GTi and the Peugeot 205 GTi we had 20 years ago (which seemed to be made of tin foil) and think about the consequences of having a crash I would not want to be in the 205!

There has also been a focus on reducing drink-driving that may have had an impact.

Stronger enforcement of speed limits may also have played a role but my understanding is that studies into the issue fail to prove a conclusive (i.e. a statistically significant) connection between the two. I suspect that the relatively few, high profile cases of "Rasers", usually involving foreigners (or Swiss with foreign backgrounds), often from the former Yugoslavia, where there were deaths and where the real issue (in my mind) was dangerous driving rather than just speed, have contributed to an almost hysterical response against speeding in Switzerland. Unfortunately it is difficult to have a discussion on it because opponents of speeding spout the truism that "if you obey the law and don't speed then you won't be affected", which may be true but does not in itself justify the disproportionate response and punishments that seem excessive compared to the actual crime. I find it hard to understand that if I went up to someone and physically attacked them, causing actual bodily harm (not hypothetical harm) I'd probably get away with a warning and probation but driving 50 kmh over the limit (on a deserted road) would likely result in a very large, income related fine a long ban, if not a custodial sentence (and deportation thereafter?)

It is a real pity that the Swiss seem to be so anti-driving because Switzerland has such lovely roads and there are great cars here too. Fortunately there are many other brilliant aspects of the country and culture to compensate for this negative (although for a car nut it is quite a big negative!) OK. Rant over!

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

The goal of reducing deaths on the road is a good one. However, there are many factors at play that have led to that reduction: cars are inherently much safer today: both actively, with much better brakes, tyres, ABS, stability controls, etc and passively through air-bags, safety cells, crumple zones and the trend for bigger cars (SUVs), which protect the occupants more. When I compare my wife's Polo GTi and the Peugeot 205 GTi we had 20 years ago (which seemed to be made of tin foil) and think about the consequences of having a crash I would not want to be in the 205!

There has also been a focus on reducing drink-driving that may have had an impact.

Stronger enforcement of speed limits may also have played a role but my understanding is that studies into the issue fail to prove a conclusive (i.e. a statistically significant) connection between the two. I suspect that the relatively few, high profile cases of "Rasers", usually involving foreigners (or Swiss with foreign backgrounds), often from the former Yugoslavia, where there were deaths and where the real issue (in my mind) was dangerous driving rather than just speed, have contributed to an almost hysterical response against speeding in Switzerland. Unfortunately it is difficult to have a discussion on it because opponents of speeding spout the truism that "if you obey the law and don't speed then you won't be affected", which may be true but does not in itself justify the disproportionate response and punishments that seem excessive compared to the actual crime. I find it hard to understand that if I went up to someone and physically attacked them, causing actual bodily harm (not hypothetical harm) I'd probably get away with a warning and probation but driving 50 kmh over the limit (on a deserted road) would likely result in a very large, income related fine a long ban, if not a custodial sentence (and deportation thereafter?)

It is a real pity that the Swiss seem to be so anti-driving because Switzerland has such lovely roads and there are great cars here too. Fortunately there are many other brilliant aspects of the country and culture to compensate for this negative (although for a car nut it is quite a big negative!) OK. Rant over!

Again, I'm totally with you....you explained it very well.

[JazzyO]

Schnellmann, I have no time now to go through your posts and I'll be away for a while sailing until the end of next week.

But I just wanted to let you know that my car is available for a test drive in Exeter, should you want to pursue the 365BB and want to drive one. Mine is running very sweetly indeed at the moment.


Onno

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Schnellmann, I have no time now to go through your posts and I'll be away for a while sailing until the end of next week.

But I just wanted to let you know that my car is available for a test drive in Exeter, should you want to pursue the 365BB and want to drive one. Mine is running very sweetly indeed at the moment.


Onno

Hi Onno

Thanks. That is a very gracious offer. Would love to take you up on it....although logistics might be fun given our respect locations.

Have a good time with the sailing.

Regards

Spencer

[212Export]

Oh Spencer, forgot to mention, the 365 BB which you started the thread about initially: Before restoration, the car burned partially down, thats why it was totally restored. The previous owner was a Swiss insurance specialist and (I believe) bought it with that partially burned status from his insurance/employer as a partial wreck and rebuilded it over the years. Just to complete the story.

[Boxer]

Given the history, it is always going to be a tough car to sell when the time comes.

Originally Posted by 212Export

Oh Spencer, forgot to mention, the 365 BB which you started the thread about initially: Before restoration, the car burned partially down, thats why it was totally restored. The previous owner was a Swiss insurance specialist and (I believe) bought it with that partially burned status from his insurance/employer as a partial wreck and rebuilded it over the years. Just to complete the story.

OK. That perhaps explains why it didn't sell. It is exactly that sort of point that worries me about buying a classic Ferrari (any classic really) is that there could be some skeleton hidden in the cupboard that only surfaces after you've bought it!

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

OK. That perhaps explains why it didn't sell. It is exactly that sort of point that worries me about buying a classic Ferrari (any classic really) is that there could be some skeleton hidden in the cupboard that only surfaces after you've bought it!

It should not be a concern. You just need to put in the time to research the car and have it properly inspected.