[212Export]

Anybody looking for the perfect 512 BB (prototype)...here it is:

Ferrari 512 BB 1977 Rot

Konrad Lutziger is a well known, very competent, trustful and nice Swiss classic car dealer. He's about 60-65 years old. As I look around his webside from time to time (he is one of those dealers which sometimes has these very rare "specials" on offer) I found this splendid 512 BB with freshly restored engine, gearbox etc. Any Boxer enthusiast should look thru the 56 pictures. I think its a nice car (if you can overlook the price of 190'000 Swissies.

[JazzyO]

#19677 is, according to my information, the second BB, not the first. The first is #19271, which is being restored by Paul Newman at the moment, see this thread: Boxer 19271 restoration

I am not sure why the garage claims you can find that #19677 is the very first "in various literature", because there certainly is literature that claims it is NOT the first. Nathan Beehl's book from 2006 on the Berlinetta Boxer, with chassis number registry, names 19271 as the first, and Paul's restoration certainly seems to prove that.

According to the Nathan Beehl registry, the car's interior was black. But I see that there is still plastic on the sills, so that would make it likely at least part of the interior is original, so the registry might be wrong there.

The registry also mentions Rosso Chiaro as the original colour. This one seems Rosso Corsa to me.

The car looks fantastic, but I don't like the BBi wheels, they are out of place on a 1976 car (it's not built in 1977 but in fact in 1976).

I'm also quite sure that the nose has been changed to a BBi one, indicated by the short grille (with exposed fog lights) and different spoiler. The nose on the BB before it, 19271, looks quite different and to me that one is original, not this one.

So, it is a spectacular Boxer, but it is not perfect in my eyes.


Onno

[212Export]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

#19677 is, according to my information, the second BB, not the first. The first is #19271, which is being restored by Paul Newman at the moment, see this thread: Boxer 19271 restoration

I am not sure why the garage claims you can find that #19677 is the very first "in various literature", because there certainly is literature that claims it is NOT the first. Nathan Beehl's book from 2006 on the Berlinetta Boxer, with chassis number registry, names 19271 as the first, and Paul's restoration certainly seems to prove that.

According to the Nathan Beehl registry, the car's interior was black. But I see that there is still plastic on the sills, so that would make it likely at least part of the interior is original, so the registry might be wrong there.

The registry also mentions Rosso Chiaro as the original colour. This one seems Rosso Corsa to me.

The car looks fantastic, but I don't like the BBi wheels, they are out of place on a 1976 car (it's not built in 1977 but in fact in 1976).

I'm also quite sure that the nose has been changed to a BBi one, indicated by the short grille (with exposed fog lights) and different spoiler. The nose on the BB before it, 19271, looks quite different and to me that one is original, not this one.

So, it is a spectacular Boxer, but it is not perfect in my eyes.


Onno

Dear Onno

Thank you very much for the update on chassis number which I have not checked at all by myself when I felt over this add today. Sorry about and glad you found that out. I have Beehls book as well and will check it. I can nor comment on the other parts your comment states "non - original" but I'm sure you are compleately right.
When I said "perfect" Boxer I should have mentioned that I mean the "cosmetic state" as (as said) I did not check any internals at all.
But I guess that would be something to be diged in by somebody really "lusting for a Boxer". Again thanks for your comments. Greatly appreciated.

[212Export]

Onno, just talked with the dealer. The car comes with the original wheels and is Ferrari classiche certified. Dealer would not be aware about any alteration in the front.

[Schnellmann]

Originally Posted by 212Export

Anybody looking for the perfect 512 BB (prototype)...here it is:

Ferrari 512 BB 1977 Rot

Konrad Lutziger is a well known, very competent, trustful and nice Swiss classic car dealer. He's about 60-65 years old. As I look around his webside from time to time (he is one of those dealers which sometimes has these very rare "specials" on offer) I found this splendid 512 BB with freshly restored engine, gearbox etc. Any Boxer enthusiast should look thru the 56 pictures. I think its a nice car (if you can overlook the price of 190'000 Swissies.

That does look lovely. I've met Lutziger a few times. Seemed like a good guy and he does have interesting cars, but my impression is that his cars are generally quite highly priced.

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

That does look lovely. I've met Lutziger a few times. Seemed like a good guy and he does have interesting cars, but my impression is that his cars are generally quite highly priced.

Yes they are, but they are in outstanding mechanical condition. Mr. Lutziger was a well known mechanic from a former Swiss Motorbike worldchampion. He knows the cars he's selling. I would rather pay a little a higher price but have mechanical comfort over time. Especially as Boxer's are not the cheapest to repair afterwards.

[JazzyO]

Fabulous selection really. Two Maserati Khamsins, you don't see those everyday. Nor the 1935 Morgan Three wheeler or the Mercedes CLK-GTR.

Best car is the Ford GT40 MkI prototype, though. That will cost quite a few millions.

I think the Riley TT Compressor got sold finally? I still lust after that car.


Onno

[212Export]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Fabulous selection really. Two Maserati Khamsins, you don't see those everyday. Nor the 1935 Morgan Three wheeler or the Mercedes CLK-GTR.

Best car is the Ford GT40 MkI prototype, though. That will cost quite a few millions.

I think the Riley TT Compressor got sold finally? I still lust after that car.


Onno

Oh have you recongnized that one as well ? That was a beautiful one indeed. I have seen that car feshly restored before in came into the hands of Mr. Lutziger. Yes, its sold.

[Schnellmann]

Back to the original post, is this BB worth CHF 190'000?

I see there is also a yellow 365 BB for sale at RRPT in Brittnau (I would normally post a link but not so sure how with this iPad). Yellow with 31'000 km for CHF 220'000. Market price? How sensitive are BB's to colour? Must say I have a soft spot for yellow as when I was a child I had a corgi or matchbox BB in yellow and it was my favorite (for looks, although for gadgets the James Bond DB5 and th interceptor from Captain Scarlet were more fun).

[tazandjan]

Bradan in New York is restoring a 365 GT4/BB. When finished, it will be for sale. Asked Dan for the Serial Number, but have not heard back yet.

[lucca brazzi]

you should buy this beast ..SYMBOLIC MOTORS LA JOLLA...119,000 USD..i saw the car close up,its perfect,,!!! Brett, ps they are willling to deal as well , on the price, go with the fuel injection without a doubt,

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

Back to the original post, is this BB worth CHF 190'000?

I see there is also a yellow 365 BB for sale at RRPT in Brittnau (I would normally post a link but not so sure how with this iPad). Yellow with 31'000 km for CHF 220'000. Market price? How sensitive are BB's to colour? Must say I have a soft spot for yellow as when I was a child I had a corgi or matchbox BB in yellow and it was my favorite (for looks, although for gadgets the James Bond DB5 and th interceptor from Captain Scarlet were more fun).

I'm sure 175' would make a deal. Swiss cars are always a little more expensive but often maintained over the years in a very good way. International collectors tend to prefer Swiss cars as they say that Swiss owners usually take care for their cars.

If I would be interested in a 512 BB, I would definitively go to see that car. Also the price is nor expensive if you take the engine and gearbox total revision in 2010 into consideration. That alone will take you 50 - 70'000 Swissies short. Without that, the car which seems cosmetically splendid would be around 100' Swissies not to bad for a carburated version. Do not forget that the car is ready to be driven, no waiting time for any revision to take place with all the well known time dilemma.

But never compare a 512 BB to a F40 as discussed yesterday by phone. Its a complete other world.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

Back to the original post, is this BB worth CHF 190'000?

I see there is also a yellow 365 BB for sale at RRPT in Brittnau (I would normally post a link but not so sure how with this iPad). Yellow with 31'000 km for CHF 220'000. Market price? How sensitive are BB's to colour? Must say I have a soft spot for yellow as when I was a child I had a corgi or matchbox BB in yellow and it was my favorite (for looks, although for gadgets the James Bond DB5 and th interceptor from Captain Scarlet were more fun).

Here's the link: - RRPT Classic Cars AG

Yellow is a fantastic colour for the 365BB. Quite a few were originally yellow, and one was the pace car for the 1975 Monaco GP, driven by Jackie Ickx. I believe yellow ones command good prices, at least not worse than other colours.

For a great 365BB the asking price of CHF220k is not that far over the top. I've seen an asking price of EUR300k (but that guy clearly was off his trolley). My feeling for the market of a good one is between €160k and €200k, depending on how original it is, so this one sits in the middle.

The car in question looks very nice, although some idiot went and painted the engine red. Looks horrible, if you ask me. The carb covers should be silver painted, not black. The car still has the original exhausts, which are highly prized (as unobtainable). Interior looks nice and correct. All in all, from small crappy photographs, impression is that the price is maybe a little on the high side but not much.


Onno

[Schnellmann]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Here's the link: - RRPT Classic Cars AG

Yellow is a fantastic colour for the 365BB. Quite a few were originally yellow, and one was the pace car for the 1975 Monaco GP, driven by Jackie Ickx. I believe yellow ones command good prices, at least not worse than other colours.

For a great 365BB the asking price of CHF220k is not that far over the top. I've seen an asking price of EUR300k (but that guy clearly was off his trolley). My feeling for the market of a good one is between €160k and €200k, depending on how original it is, so this one sits in the middle.

The car in question looks very nice, although some idiot went and painted the engine red. Looks horrible, if you ask me. The carb covers should be silver painted, not black. The car still has the original exhausts, which are highly prized (as unobtainable). Interior looks nice and correct. All in all, from small crappy photographs, impression is that the price is maybe a little on the high side but not much.


Onno

Thanks. Your knowledge of the BB is quite amazing! I'm still working on Plan A, but think I might go and check this BB over lunch as they aren't too far from me and I can't resist a look as I can't remember the last time I saw a 365 BB - might be as far back as the UK car shows from the seventies!

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

Thanks. Your knowledge of the BB is quite amazing! I'm still working on Plan A, but think I might go and check this BB over lunch as they aren't too far from me and I can't resist a look as I can't remember the last time I saw a 365 BB - might be as far back as the UK car shows from the seventies!

Be careful and check the dealer well.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Schnellmann

Thanks. Your knowledge of the BB is quite amazing!

Not at all, Paul Newman's little pinkie knows more than I do.

But here's a shot of how my engine bay looks, which I very much believe to be correct.


Onno

[brettgagnon]

Paul is on vacation (how dare he) in SoCal, I expect he will chime in soon enough

[Newman]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Not at all, Paul Newman's little pinkie knows more than I do.

But here's a shot of how my engine bay looks, which I very much believe to be correct.


Onno

You're too kind and thanks!

Your engine bay looks great but things that catch my attention are the gold bolts on the rear heat shields. Early cars use silver meaning early 512's and I suspect 365's as well but ferrari isn't known for being consistent. Starter solenoid boot uses a steel band clamp on it. Outside engine bay, cabin vent slots need black strip of paint rather than just body color. Two tab coolant cap. Usually see 4 tab caps.
Are your aluminum air cleaner lids painted? Just curious as the 76 512 I have here have been painted with a textured finish which is incorrect. Other early 512's Ive looked over (and 365's of course) appear painted on the top and natural on the underside. Is yours like that? Trying to determine correct finish on the 76.

Thanks

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Newman

You're too kind and thanks!

Your engine bay looks great but things that catch my attention are the gold bolts on the rear heat shields. Early cars use silver meaning early 512's and I suspect 365's as well but ferrari isn't known for being consistent. Starter solenoid boot uses a steel band clamp on it. Outside engine bay, cabin vent slots need black strip of paint rather than just body color. Two tab coolant cap. Usually see 4 tab caps.
Are your aluminum air cleaner lids painted? Just curious as the 76 512 I have here have been painted with a textured finish which is incorrect. Other early 512's Ive looked over (and 365's of course) appear painted on the top and natural on the underside. Is yours like that? Trying to determine correct finish on the 76.

Thanks

Hi Paul,

The gold bolts may not be correct. I didn't notice it before but most 365 engine bays I've got on file have got silver ones.

Unlike you, most of the engine bays I've seen or got a photo of have got 2 tab caps. However, all of the 4 tab ones are 1975 or later (although not all 1975 ones have got 4 tabs) so if I speculate (and considering the cars I have an engine bay pic of are in the minority), then I would say that 1976 should have a 4 tab cap.

The air cleaner lids are painted on top and natural on underside.

All 365's I have photo's of (102 examples) have the cabin slots painted in body colour. 17689 is claimed to have it's original paint still and doesn't have a black stripe.

Hope this helps!


Onno

[Newman]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Hi Paul,

The gold bolts may not be correct. I didn't notice it before but most 365 engine bays I've got on file have got silver ones.

Unlike you, most of the engine bays I've seen or got a photo of have got 2 tab caps. However, all of the 4 tab ones are 1975 or later (although not all 1975 ones have got 4 tabs) so if I speculate (and considering the cars I have an engine bay pic of are in the minority), then I would say that 1976 should have a 4 tab cap.

The air cleaner lids are painted on top and natural on underside.

All 365's I have photo's of (102 examples) have the cabin slots painted in body colour. 17689 is claimed to have it's original paint still and doesn't have a black stripe.

Hope this helps!


Onno

The cabin vent is interesting thanks for that, I wonder if this was just a 512 thing that they decided to do? Does that mean the 76 512 I'm restoring had body colour vents? There were some 365's produced after this 512 was built as there was overlap in the production run. Do you have any info on a 365 boxer after 19271?