[IPF]

Gentlemen,

The first Ferrari I ever saw up close was a Boxer (c.1980). Ever since, it's been in my top 3 of cars. Things have progressed to the point where I feel it makes sense to consider getting one. But how to go about it?

First off, I'm in no hurry. If it should take 1 or 2 years to do this properly, fine. I've downloaded the FL Buyer's Guide, of course. On top of that I would value any experience/opinions/advice. Questions I'm pondering include:

[1] From a driving experience perspective, should I consider a 512 BB or a BBi?
I've read insightful posts by a.o. Onno and Jimmy and guess a 365 would probably be a bit much for me to handle (despite its purity and fabulous triple rearlight/exhaust configuration). But between the 512 BB and BBi it's less clear to me: reactivity and great carb sound versus driving ease and reliability, perhaps? Any views on how Boxers compare to 328s (which I'm quite familiar with)?

[2] What should I reckon with in terms of reliability and maintenance?
Assuming one starts with a well-sorted BB(i) (€100-150k?), what are typical (if such a thing exists) challenges with Boxers, and what would be a sensible maintenance/contingency budget on an annual basis? How troublesome is the procurement of parts these days?

[3] Where and how to start looking for a proper Boxer?
I guess that finding a solid Boxer is not a trivial exercise. I am by no means a "concours" or "low mileage"-aficionado, but I do understand the imperative of buying a well-tended Ferrari. Boxers being a bit scarcer that e.g. 308/328s (which are in reasonable supply around these parts), I wonder how (current) owners would recommend going about finding one.

[4] Or: should I prioritise an alternative after all?
Weird question, perhaps, but somewhere in the back of my mind there is at least one other car vying for attention: the Dino 246 GT? I find its design breathtakingly elegant, but suppose it's a wholly different choice. Any thoughts? Or (even other) alternatives?

Many thanks in advance!
Irvin
.

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Hello Irvin:

First of all, I do not profess to be any kind of expert on the BBs. With that in my, I shall say few comments, based on my own experiences.

I think you need to think about why you are thinking of a BB. Is it the indulgement and happiness of owning this piece of sculpture and to admire the subtle lines and beauty. (There was a gentleman in LA who built his new home in order to display his BB centered in his living room and the whole house looked like a gallery just for that BB. It was beautifully executed.) Or is your intention to drive the BB often enough and get your satisfactions ?

If your choice is between the 512BB and 512BBi, these two are quite different in driving feel for obvious reasons. Go for the carb BB if your desire is inclined for more vintage feel and driving pleasure. The BBi is the final evolution of the three models with the refinements. Probably, much more reliable and easy to drive due to more HP and torque. But the game is gain some and lose some. My choice between the two would be the carb 512BB.

I do not think parts are that terribly difficult to get. Few years ago, a gentleman here in Japan longed for a 365BB and he fulfilled his dream when he got one in Germany and had is fully restored by this shop in Germany near the border of Swiss. I saw the car here and it was immaculate.

As for the other choice, the Dino 246GT (Ahhhhh, what dilemma !). I suppose the question again is what you wish to do with the car. Both cars, I can just look at them all day and admire the subtle lines and voluptuous curves and be happy.

Between the two, (being different of course), if I HAVE to choose, it would be the Dino. Yes, it is a mere six cylinder, some people do not consider Dino as a genuine Ferrari, on and on. Let me tell you, besides the sensuous voluptuous design, the driving pleasure and enjoyment speaks for itself. I cannot say enough how wonderful Dino GT is, the design, the size, the stance, the balance, on and on.

Either choices are wonderful and I hope you get to sort your priorities right and acquire the car that would make you happy to own, even just to look at it. Onno should be chimming in to indoctrinate you. Good luck with your search, Irvin. w/ smiles Jimmy

[IPF]

Jimmy,

Thank you so much for your reply. You've managed to make both cars sound even more desirable... and even harder to choose between

As for what I would want to do with either, that's a good question, to which the answer fortunately is simple: drive, first and foremost. On my 328, I've netted about 7,000 km p.a., plus another 5-6,000 on my 911 this year alone (neither being daily drivers, mind you). I truly believe driving is what cars are for. If only I had more time on my hands, I'ld tour more and further abroad. This year, I've only managed two Germany runs and a Luxembourg/France/Belgium tour (apart from driving around in NL).

Then again, what to drive is in part determined by the inherent beauty of the cars under consideration. As you describe, the enjoyment of simply looking at such automobiles and the privileged feeling of owning them are considerable. If driving comes first, aesthetics must be a close second!

Between the BB and BBi, I think I understand your preference. It's probably something one has to experience first hand in order to appreciate, although I can sort of picture the evolution from raw speed (365) through massive power (512BB) to somewhat more docile refinement (BBi). Given that I would predominantly be interested in putting at least 5,000 km per annum on one though, do you feel there could be a relevant differential between the two 512s from a reliability perspective?

Very interesting though that you would actually prefer the Dino (if under the gun, of course). Do I understand you correctly, that - apart from the truly magnificent styling - you cherish the poise and nimbleness of it? Intuitively, I would expect the Dino to be a bit more like an old 911 or something of the kind, than like later-day ('80s) V8/V12 Ferrari's: light on its feet, feeling more quick and rapier-like than brutally strong and planted. Am I even remotely close to grasping the difference? (I do consider it a true Ferrari, by the way)

Ideally I'ld circumvent the choice and get both a Dino and a 512. In reality though, it will have to be either one first, the other on a considerably more remote horizon than 2011/12. Choices, choices

Irvin

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Irvin:
Probably, it does not matter which one you pick, because they are all wonderful to own. You just have to clarify your needs and desires in order to acquire the best one for yourself. This whole searching process is in itself part of the fun.

Boxer is an expert on BBs and if you contact him, I am sure he would enlighten you with his viewpoints. (He must be too busy with his latest toy, Mosler). w/ smiles Jimmy

[SBDaytona]

Hi Irvine: first of all what a simply wonderful delema! I have been through a similar process and ended up with a 512BB. I adore it and put quite a few miles on it each year. The 512BB is not as raw as the 365 BB (or quite as exciting) but is has had a few of the little early bugs fixed . It is still provides impressive performance, fabulous styling with all the noise, responsiveness and sense of ocasion that only carbs can provide. The carbs are no trouble - get them set up properly and then don't let people who think they know what they are doing fiddle with them. I havent had to touch mine in years. I personally found the BBi a little too "sedate". I bought the car to drive and do. I searched for a car based on condition and maintenance history and have never looked back. It took a while to find it as they dont come on to the market very often. I am fortunate enough to have a Daytona and 308 to choose from but the Boxer gets driven the most.
Having said all that there is no wrong answer.
Good luck and enjoy the search (it is very much part of the fun).
Sean

[IPF]

Hi Sean,

It's not a bad dilemma indeed. Judging by your BB acquisition, I'll probably need a bit of time to resolve it. I've seen the occasional BB come to market, but not all necessarily qualify. Though I'm impatient by nature, I will certainly heed your advice to enjoy the search for this one.

The carbed 512 does once more sound like the optimal choice. What I find remarkable is that you choose to use your BB more than say your 308. I'ld consider the latter one of the most user-friendly Ferrari's. The fact that your 512 prevails does suggest that they too are quite solid and usable. Thanks for your insightful comments, also in this respect.

Speaking of lovely choices, I can only applaud your taste in classics: a 308, a BB and a Daytona, that's a great Scuderia to have at hand! Just curious: which car sports which colour?

Best,
Irvin

[Boxer]

My apologies for the short reply but I am late for an event. Having owned a 365 BB and a 512 BB, it is the 512 BB which I would most likely opt for again. It is a more solid useable car in the real world. Wiring and water pumps tend to be weak points on all BBs and should be checked over very throughly. I have also driven a 512 BBi a few times but found the switch to FI took some of the BB magic away. IMHO, a BB should have carbs.

However, just to complicate things a bit, having owned the two mentioned above, plus a Daytona and a Fiberglass 308 GTB, it is the last on the list which I would be most tempted to buy again.

[IPF]

Boxer,

Short or no, another insightful reply, for which thanks!

By now it's 3-0 between the 512 BB and BBi respectively. Strikingly, two outsiders - Dino 246 GT (Jimmy), 308 GTB Vetroresina (Boxer) - have scored as well.

Excuse the faulty competitive analogy, but this does intrigue me. I get the impression that late Dinos and early 308s in reality may be closer than I had thought. Both are light with strong but compact carbed engines, have elegant lines and handle very well. Something along those lines? Would you, Boxer, thus consider a Dino, or you, Jimmy, a glass 308?

I am curious: what is it that makes these light, small cars command such loyal followership? How does driving one of those compare to say a 512 BB? And - for reference within my own experience - how does either (246/308, 512) compare to a 328?

This is rapidly turning out to be even more interesting than I had thought...

Irvin

[212Export]

If considering money for fun then the Vetrosina 308 would be a great choice. Light and nimble for half of the Dino money and half a correct 512/365 BB money. If you drive looooong distances then maybe a Daytona could be a great choice (but money wise its another step unfortuinately)

[IPF]

Ah,

Interesting perspective, hadn't really thought it through on that level. It's a good challenge though, since prices are pretty serious for some of these machines.


Would you say I'm far off if I go by these directional numbers, for properly sorted (yet no concours) cars?

• 308 Vetroresina: c. €60-70k
• 512 BBi: c. € 100-120k
• 512 BB: c. € 120-140k
• Dino 246 GT: c. € 125-150k
• 365 GT4 BB: c. € 150-180k
• 365 GTB4 Daytona: c. €250-300k(?)

If I'm even remotely correct, the Vetro does look like good value for money (though compared to €40-50k steel 308/328s it is still serious). The Daytona is magnificent, yet one could get both a BB and a Dino for that kind of money (which would be about twice my intended budget on this).

Irvin

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Note the size comparison between the 365BB and Dino. Not all that different. Now, which would you rather own, even tho budget is an unavoidable realistic factor to consider ? Which one do you think would make you happy in one ? w/ smiles Jimmy

[IPF]

Jimmy,

You've just sublimated a 1000 words & thoughts into a few sublime pictures. Bravo! The answer to your question is either "Both" (like you), or (more realistically in my case) "I don't know... yet".

Simply put: if I could, I would avoid the choice and get both. But alas, I can't. For one, I don't have €250-300k lying around to spend on Ferrari's (and even if I eventually would, there's no way I could make off with it without my wife killing me ). Second, I wouldn't know where to put two more cars. Third, two at the same time would be gluttony, and overeating never did any a fine dish justice.

So: choosing is inevitable. Yet there's the rub.

The Dino is incredibly elegant, so beautifully curved. It is the essence of fluid styling. Actually, I feel it's lines echo right through the 308 / 288GTO / 328 suite of cars, perhaps even in the Boxer, and - surprisingly - in today's 458. Reading up on the Dino, I find the highest praise, e.g. “Of all the mid-engine cars of which I have had the experience of testing, the Ferrari Dino 246 GT stands head and shoulders above the rest. Once you have experienced it, it makes all front-engined or rear-engined cars obsolete.” (Dennis Jenkinson in Motor Sport)

The BB is openly potent, forceful yet razor-sharp by design. It embodies the heyday of supercars (note: I think this "heyday" discussion featured on this forum a while back) and still strikes me at least with awe. Quoting some other aficionado: "The 70's was also the decade in which (to quote our friend James May), "the Italians went supercar mad." The Ferrari of the 1970s was the Berlinetta Boxer, a true monster. It was loud, over the top, flashy, and expensive, but rather advanced for its day"

Jimmy, your pictures sum it up: I need to think hard(er)...
.

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

I concur. Everything you mentioned is so true. Maybe you already have done so, but it is best to get behind those wheels and see what they're like.
I am sure others would chime in sooner or later to "confuse" your thoughts, but then that's half the fun.
Lastly, as you mentioned, prbably the Dinos 206 & 246 were the start of the midengine lineage all the way to the modern F cars. w/ smiles Jimmy

[il Capolino]

Irvin!

Enjoy, you are a very lucky man to be in such a delightful situation of choices! I was there and I too read all there was about the cars and consulted with the helpful collegues of this forum. Eventually I opted for the Dino. My mind is clearing more and more and it seams like my next step will be a Vetroresina and a 250 GTE. It will take some time before my finances are up for one of the two cars and I don't know which one I will buy first.

The BB is now on the back burner since it was an either-or-situation when I chose between the Dino and a BB. But then again, as time goes by and finances build up, there is no telling if today's wish list will remain the same...

Good luck in your decision making process!

Here's a photograph of my Dino and my F430 Spider. These are two truly magnificent cars which I enjoy immensely.

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by IPF

Boxer,
Excuse the faulty competitive analogy, but this does intrigue me. I get the impression that late Dinos and early 308s in reality may be closer than I had thought. Both are light with strong but compact carbed engines, have elegant lines and handle very well. Something along those lines? Would you, Boxer, thus consider a Dino, or you, Jimmy, a glass 308?

I have very seriously considered a Dino 246 several times. Just never found the right one at the right price. Also have never quite felt comfortable behind the wheel and have not wanted to have to pull seat and rip out rails to try to find an extra inch of leg room.

In terms of driving, I have to agree, the 246 and the glass 308 are very close dynamically. Light, easily revving engines, great steering which all bundle together to deliver a sensation of quickness that encourages you to run fast and hard up a mountain road.

The BBs are built to crush continents, the 246/308 to conquer the Alps.

[Vitalone]

Originally Posted by Boxer

The BBs are built to crush continents, the 246/308 to conquer the Alps.

I think this perfectly sums up the essential difference between the 246/308 vs BB. The BB is a superb GT with the style and drama of a supercar. I loved my 512BB. The 246 and 308 have the same chassis, with the glass 308 a bit lighter than the 246 and adding 60hp to the game. Both are agile sportscars that make surprisingly good GT's. I loved my 246 too. The glass 308 has surprised me by being a lot more of a hardcore Ferrari driving experience than I expected. This hardcore driving experience came to me on FLED 2 when we spent glorious days blasting in the Alps...

For me the glass 308 represents a superb combination of the 246 agility and the BB style and performance. I fallen for her too.

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Confusion and indecision has entered a deeper level for Irvin. w/ smiles Jimmy

[212Export]

Originally Posted by Vitalone

I think this perfectly sums up the essential difference between the 246/308 vs BB. The BB is a superb GT with the style and drama of a supercar. I loved my 512BB. The 246 and 308 have the same chassis, with the glass 308 a bit lighter than the 246 and adding 60hp to the game. Both are agile sportscars that make surprisingly good GT's. I loved my 246 too. The glass 308 has surprised me by being a lot more of a hardcore Ferrari driving experience than I expected. This hardcore driving experience came to me on FLED 2 when we spent glorious days blasting in the Alps...

For me the glass 308 represents a superb combination of the 246 agility and the BB style and performance. I fallen for her too.

Once again agree compleately. You have been kind enough to let me driver your Vetrosina on the St. Bernardino pass. Strong, light and nimble...well ahead of the Boxer (with the exception if Onno would drive the Boxer).
But seriously, you get a Vetrosina for 50 - 60' Euros, have 8 cylinders, only 700 produced, less than half the price of a Dino. I love the Dino shape, its a fantastic looking car but the Vetrosina has more power/torque and is probably "rougher" which may or maynot be another reason for somebody with real driving plans in mind. (and by spending a lower sum, you may keep all options open for a second F'car as well)

[SBDaytona]

Originally Posted by IPF

Hi Sean,

It's not a bad dilemma indeed. Judging by your BB acquisition, I'll probably need a bit of time to resolve it. I've seen the occasional BB come to market, but not all necessarily qualify. Though I'm impatient by nature, I will certainly heed your advice to enjoy the search for this one.

The carbed 512 does once more sound like the optimal choice. What I find remarkable is that you choose to use your BB more than say your 308. I'ld consider the latter one of the most user-friendly Ferrari's. The fact that your 512 prevails does suggest that they too are quite solid and usable. Thanks for your insightful comments, also in this respect.

Speaking of lovely choices, I can only applaud your taste in classics: a 308, a BB and a Daytona, that's a great Scuderia to have at hand! Just curious: which car sports which colour?

Best,
Irvin

Hi Irvin, what a great discussion! Im sure you are getting more and more confused (but somehow enjoying it). The Daytona is "Retail Red" (it left the factory as silver and will be again one day), Boxer is factory original Silver (very flattering colour for a Boxer in my view) and the 308 is an early steel car in red.

I agree with everything that has been said so far. In particular Boxer, Jimmy and Onno were extremely helpful in my decision processes. There is no wrong answer just personal preferences. The 308 is wonderful, agile and very user friendly. However even after many years an outing in the Boxer is an event. It is reliable, a bit of a beast, something of a challenge to drive well and very rewarding when you do drive it well. For instance early next year a group of friends and I will be traveling to a Classic Race Meeting and F1 GP race - the long way. We will do about 3,500 kms of very scenic and twisty roads. My choice for this trip will be the Boxer! Daytona would be great but the car is a very low kms example, freshly restored and valuable enough that you worry about some of the road works and where it is parked.

Like Boxer - I have considered a Dino on a number of occasions but find that it is very difficult to find a really good one. Values are high, however many were badly negelected back when they were under appreciated. If I were to make any changes to the stable (not that I am the least bit discontent) it would be to change the 308 for a dry sump vetroresina and add a really nice Dino!

Good luck with your dilemma
Sean

[parkerfe]

When I was shopping to replace my then 349 Spider, I too looked at both the BB512 and BB512i. I ended up going with the BB512i. The FI results in a lower torque curve than the carb version which makes it feel faster and easier to drive on public roads. 10 years later, I'm glad I went with the BB512i. I drive it 1-2 times a month and have had very few issues other than having to have the alternators rebuilt and the A/C system cleaned and serviced. I change the oil/filter twice a year and had an engine out service in 2001 and again in 2010.