[boxer512bb]

I have recently purchased an all Rosso RHD 512BB SN 24839 and although brought to have some exhilarating motoring I would like to maintain and enhance its value for long term investment purposes.
The Crema upholstery with black inserts has never been restored apart from a close match leather dye that has been applied to the leather. This dye is now coming off and I wish to restore it to at least to a very presentable condition.
The carpets and dash are black.
I have some questions that I hope some members can assist me with…..

1/ Would a complete restoration of the interior add more value to the car, bearing in mind you can restore a car many times but it is only original once?
If restored should the interior be in the original colour to retain/increase its value, or would it not be a major if it was changed?
Was the Alcantara finish an option at the time and is it considered the ‘best’ type of finish to have on the dash given that leather is problematic due to the heat created by the large windscreen?

2/ Was the all red available as an option in 1978, as at the time I believed all boxers came out with the matt black base?
3/ Can the air con unit be replaced with a more efficient modern unit, if so what make and model is the best?

4/ At cam belt change time, what else should be inspected or replaced whilst the engine is out?

5/ Does a sports exhaust give the car much more horse power and what would be the better sounding and best make of sports exhaust brand be?

6/ What other options are there for the standard size Michelin tyres and what are considered best for a BB given tyre technology 30 years later?

7/ Do members see 512 BB’s being ‘collectable’ in say the next 5 years or so and start showing increases the likes of what the Daytona, 246 Dino and Lusso’s have over recent times?

I really do appreciate the time anyone puts into a reply to me in this my first posting on a web site. Thank you so much.

[JazzyO]

Welcome! And congratulations on a great car.

Here are my $0.02 worth.

1. Restoring the interior will increase its value, but only if done right. Yes it is only original once but don't forget the BB is not exactly a rare car. For the original interior to be more valuable in bad looking condition, you need to have a pretty special motorcar, such as a Vignale Ferrari from the 50ies. Personally, on a car like a Boxer I'd much rather have a fantastic looking car than a tatty one that is "original". Which is why I'm restoring my own Boxer. When restoring the interior, the original colour is more valuable, but it is also important that you use the correct type of leather. If you want the car certified (Ferrari Classiche) then you also need to make sure that you use a colour (if not using the original colour) that was available at the time. Please note that the original specification leather is not easily obtainable. Henk van Lith (http://www.carinteriors.nl/) is the current owner of the original process and it will cost around $10k and 2 months delivery time for the hides, excluding the actual work. If you decide to restore the interior, then please be advised that very few people know how to do interiors properly, or take required the time for it. The most famous one in Italy (that had a very good reputation) is very bad nowadays. If you don't look too closely it's OK, but I've seen some pretty shocking pieces of shoddy workmanship! If you want it done right, it will cost a fair amount of money. On a Boxer, you will not increase the value to the amount you will spend on the interior restoration, so you have to do it because you want to, not because it will make you money.
2. To my knowledge the all-red was available in 1978. There is an all-white 365 BB in the Mel Nichols book (published 1979) - it is suggested that it was delivered as such by Ferrari SpA.
3. The aircon is not necessarily bad. It is just poorly cared for in almost all instances. I have an aircon in my 1967 330GTC, and it works quite well (not as well as a modern one of course, but cool air comes out nonetheless). The one in my Boxer doesn't do anything and I will have it reconditioned and/or repaired. I am not aware of modern upgrades but that doesn't mean they are not out there. I would, however, never change it - rather be a bit sweaty, that's how it was in the old days too.
4. I would check everything! With the engine out you can reach everything easily. Have a look at the gearbox, diff, wiring, seals, bushes etc.
5. The principal sports exhaust is the ANSA, which was already available back in the '70ies. Yes, it improves performance, and yes it sounds good. NOTE: the 365BB ANSA doesn't fit the 512BB.
6. There are a lot of people that put lower profile tyres on BB's. I have no interest in that at all, as I think it looks terrible. I want my Boxer to be the best car it can be with 1974 technology, not with 2010 technology. I did see a 1981 512BB yesterday that had wide balloon XWX's, "twice" the size of my 365BB XWX's. It looked very cool, very period.
7. The Boxer, particularly the 512 variants, will never attain the same status as the cars you mention. With 2,300 made, there are too many of them. But they will rise in value, I am fairly certain. The 365's will be quite a bit more expensive as they are rare (387 made), closer related to the Daytona, have cleaner lines, and are more entertaining (or difficult depending on your point of view) to drive. In the US they are not too far off Daytona values.


Onno

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Congrats and welcome to FL. My suggestion for you is to go easy first. In other words, instead of trying to do all kinds of things right away, get used to the car first and find out where attentions are needed. Of course, if you have money to burn, then go all out and do a wonderful restoration to your desire. Several years ago, there was this guy in Japan who was determined to acquire a 365 BB, which he did, and had an all out restoration done in Germany which took almost two years to complete. I believe his bill came to the neighborhood of 200,000 US$. He wanted it so badly that I understand he had the car shipped as air cargo to Japan. That bill was close to 20,000 US$. Needless to say, the car was immaculate. I saw the car once.
Sorry for digressing. As I was saying, get used to the car first, then set your priorities. I am sure Onno and few others here can be of great help for you to make wise decisions. Good luck, and it would be nice to see pics here. w/ smiles Jimmy

[Boxer]

Agree with everything Jimmy and JazzyO have said. Only thing I would add is have the water pump overhauled when they pull the engine.

[Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS]

Forgot to mention, check the fuel lines, other elastic hoses and their connections and clamps. Very important for BB. w/ smiles Jimmy

[boxer512bb]

Thanks so much JazzyO, Jimmy Chen and Boxer for the time you put in to replying to my questions it was really appreciated.

I think Jazzy O you are right on the mark on your comments on the restoration, good advice, thanks a million.

I have received a quotation on rectifying the air con problem which currently has no refrigerant in it. They will recondition the compressor whilst the engine is out which is a much simpler exercise than when it is in. They have also quoted for replacing all the hoses and discharge fittings in the unit but that is 5 times more expensive to do that than just recondition the compressor !!!!

My car has 60 profile tyres on it currently which do not look correct, are the original sized Michilen tyres still available?

Does anyone have any comments on replacing the leather on the dash with Alcantara?
I think it could be more practicable but personally i like the idea of keeping it original in black leather and the car will not be stored out in the sun.

I agree with you JazzyO on prices given the models i referred to, however considering there were over 10,000 Testarossas built, and only 2,300 Boxers ,which is not substantially more than the 1,500 odd Daytonas constructed i believe that will help them appreciate in value.
Given that the 365's and the BB's were the last of the carburetor cars and only around 1,300 built, i think that will also help them retain their investment status in the future or at least keep their difference of 50 to 60 % of Daytona prices, maybe closer in the future. What do other members think?

I will post some photos as soon as they are available.

Once again i am so grateful for your help. Cheers and Best Wishes for 2010.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by boxer512bb

I agree with you JazzyO on prices given the models i referred to, however considering there were over 10,000 Testarossas built, and only 2,300 Boxers ,which is not substantially more than the 1,500 odd Daytonas constructed i believe that will help them appreciate in value.

Not everything is build numbers - there are various other factors that hold the value of Boxers back (built for 12 years until 1985 running into the modern era, styling that reminds too many people of the 308 - I know; what are they thinking!, perceived difficulty of driving Boxers, most importantly: they are considered the first modern road Ferrari in the Ferrari clubs and are excluded from most classic Ferrari events). However, your assessment of 60% of Daytona values should certainly hold steady.


Onno

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by boxer512bb

My car has 60 profile tyres on it currently which do not look correct, are the original sized Michilen tyres still available?

Yes, you can order them through:

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/index.php

[IPF]

Originally Posted by boxer512bb

Does anyone have any comments on replacing the leather on the dash with Alcantara?
I think it could be more practicable but personally i like the idea of keeping it original in black leather and the car will not be stored out in the sun.

One advantage of replacing the black leather with some sort of textile fabric - wasn't "mousehair" an original option on these cars? - is the elimination of the annoying and potentially hazardous sunlight reflection off the dash back onto your windshield right smack in the middle of your line of sight.

[boxer512bb]

Thanks for your replies guys.
To get the car 'Certified Ferrari Classiche' ,what procedure does one have to go through?
What benefits does this give the car?

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by boxer512bb

Thanks for your replies guys.
To get the car 'Certified Ferrari Classiche' ,what procedure does one have to go through?
What benefits does this give the car?

You get a nice book listing all your cars information. Personally I would not bother given the way it is currently run. As there is no follow up mechanism, all it does is confirm that the car was in a specific condition on a certain date. Two years later, from a practical standpoint, it has little to no value.

[JazzyO]

I agree with Boxer in principle. Unfortunately, having the car certified or not is starting to have an impact on participating in certain events. If you have no desire to participate in those events then personally I would not get my car certified. But if you do, then it does help getting accepted if you have certification.

I do not think it really helps resale value, yet, but if the connection between events and certification is re-inforced in future then it might start paying off getting your car certified. At this moment in time, this would only be interesting for people participating in events in Europe.


Onno

[boxer512bb]

Thank you Boxer and Onno on your comments on Ferrari Classiche. As you can now see on my members profile i reside in New Zealand so the chance of entering Ferrari events in Europe unfortunatly is minimal.
For your info there are about 10 Boxers of all varients in NZ of which i believe only 2 were imported new to our country, of which mine is one. Its history is quite interesting and therefore a pritty rare car in NZ.
I would like to keep the car original as possible but whats up with the Boxers i see with white/clear indicator lights?

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by boxer512bb

I would like to keep the car original as possible but whats up with the Boxers i see with white/clear indicator lights?

Many of the 365BBs came with the white lenses.

[JazzyO]

Yes, if they're white they are original.


Onno

[SBDaytona]

Hi, welcome & congratulations. You have got yourself a wonderful car - I personally think they are a very underrated Ferrari. I have a 512BB in Australia (white lenses) which I love. I have found this site to be very useful. Boxer, Onnno & Jimmy in particular have been a great help, provided excellent advice, sources of valuable information and fantastic support. Their enthusiasm is contagious!

Suffice to say that I agree with all that has been said and add:

1. I too prefer the period tyre look and they are still available - try Russell Stuckey of Stuckey's Tyres in Melbourne as they are closer to home stuckey.com.au You can even have them made in a very sticky compound if you want period look and more grip.

2. I am planning to do the cam belts soon so am doing my homework now. Be careful of the "while we are at it syndrome" as it can add up to unnecessary mega $ in no time. I plan to rebuild the water pump, replace all fuel hoses (as stated above inspect your fuel hoses regulary - you dont want a fire), all water hoses that are difficult to reach with the engine in the car and others on condition, "jet-hot" ceramic coat the headers (headers back is all stainless), replace the drive shaft seals (there are much better ones available now), inspect the cams and check clearances and stick a scope into each cylinder (my car had stainless valves done some time ago) etc.

3. My dash is original leather and in good shape. I had one pulled seam repaired and you cant tell. Mine has a nice patina (which is the kind word for a few scuff and marks, fair wear and tear for a 30 year old car - not show quality). I bought the car to drive and enjoy, its no show pony but quite presentable. I like it that way as I have seen too many cars turn into immaculate trailer queens that the owners are too scared to drive. If you want to talk to a good interior guy (who does a lot of Ferrari's) try Gary Blackman in Melbourne www.garryblackmantrimming.com

4. I have restored a few cars and Jimmy's advice is very sound. I like to enjoy the car for a while and then do the improvements as a series of manageable projects enjoying the car again between projects. As you use the car you might find that it is the interior that you want to do first so - you reseach, plan, buy some of the bits, line up the specialist trimmer (you want the right people doing the work and sometimes waiting lists are very long), then when ready take the car off the road, complete the project in short order and then enjoy the car again for a while with the smart new interior before doing the next project. I have seen too many restos turn into a multi year, big dollar saga - car is stripped to a million bits (the easy part) then gradually becomes an overwhelming series of jobs, family gets upset and enthusiam wanes over time. Onno is different - he has other cars to enjoy and he knows full well what he is getting into, has chosen some of the best to do the work including an overall project management approach. Even so he knows it will take big $ and at least a year to complete.

5. Aircon. Im not aware of any sympathetic upgrades (and I have looked). Compressor seal is generally the souce of coolant leakage. Compressors are commmon to many period cars so are not expensive or diffficult to overhaul. They are not great but mine is pretty reasonable. Most have had to be changed to new CFC friendly enviro coolants which has a significant negative impact on cooling ability. I carry a thin windshield cover which is cut to fit on the top of the glass. Close the doors on the end tabs and it is secured in place. The lines of the car still look great and it makes a big (huge) difference to interior temp. The air con has a fighting chance if you dont let the temp get too high in the first place.

Yilkes what am I doing I am going to end up like Boxer, Onno, Jimmy and the like - I did warn you that Boxer enthusiasm is contagious! Good luck with the car. Hope to see it one day. SB

[SBDaytona]

Hey Guys, I have a noisy T/O bearing which i will replace when I do the cam belts. Clutch is pretty new but Im not sure if the T/O was replaced at the time. Does anyone know if you can get a specialist version or substitute. I have priced them on line and they are $660 to $700!!!! For a bearing! Im sure they are made of 24ct gold but give me a break!

[JazzyO]

Great post (referring to the first one), Sean, very helpful and I'm learning things here too. This is what we come to FL for.

I'm sure I don't need to say this, but don't fret: my Boxer will be driven to events and throughout Europe after the restoration. Spending all this money and then not using the car as it was intended makes no sense to me. The previous owner of my 330GTC showed me that you CAN find a decent balance between concours condition and using it regularly. You just need to stay on top of it, spending a couple of grand a year to keep it tip-top. That being said, I can understand people have different sets of budgets, and I'll always respect a car that is maintained properly, mechanically, no matter what it looks like. What I cannot stand is not maintaining the car properly, and there are plenty of concours winners that fit that bill. Which why they're trailered. A chicken-and-egg-thing. As a contrast, my 330GTC has been on the track many times! But not yet tracked by me.

As for the bearing, I'm not aware of any remakes but it is possible they're out there - I mean, I have no experience buying parts for a Boxer so I wouldn't know. I hope to get in touch with my specialist this week to see what's going on with my Boxer (he's way too quiet... ), and if I don't forget I will ask him.


Onno

[boxer512bb]

Thanks Sean for your most informative post.
My car is currently having it's cam belts changed and the engine is out...albeit a difficult task i was told !!!
I will get the technician to look at some of the matters you suggested as now is the time to do so.
The car is not in the city i live in so i cannot inspect progress. I was told i did not need to contact him and 'no news is good news' if i do not hear from him.!!!!
If anything unusual comes out of the 'cam belt change' i will post it on this site which maybe helpful to you as i have obtained some great infomation off this site from those above.
I have asked the technician to check the fuel hoses but maybe inspite of the condition of them i should replace them anyway, do others see that is what i should do ???
I also have the air con unit being reconditioned.
I cannot wait to get the car as i have hardly driven it yet.
The restoration of the interior will have to wait, but i have got onto an excellent upholsterer who restores old Ferraris from the USA. I understand he is near retirement, so i might have to get in quickly.
Classic Adelaide is an event i have wanted to attend so maybe this year could be the year, even bringing my car over would add to the excitement.
What city are you from Sean as i would be delighted to see your 512 one day ?

Cheers and Best Wishes.

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by boxer512bb

Thanks Sean for your most informative post.
My car is currently having it's cam belts changed and the engine is out...albeit a difficult task i was told !!!
I will get the technician to look at some of the matters you suggested as now is the time to do so.
The car is not in the city i live in so i cannot inspect progress. I was told i did not need to contact him and 'no news is good news' if i do not hear from him.!!!!
If anything unusual comes out of the 'cam belt change' i will post it on this site which maybe helpful to you as i have obtained some great infomation off this site from those above.
I have asked the technician to check the fuel hoses but maybe inspite of the condition of them i should replace them anyway, do others see that is what i should do ???
I also have the air con unit being reconditioned.
I cannot wait to get the car as i have hardly driven it yet.
The restoration of the interior will have to wait, but i have got onto an excellent upholsterer who restores old Ferraris from the USA. I understand he is near retirement, so i might have to get in quickly.
Classic Adelaide is an event i have wanted to attend so maybe this year could be the year, even bringing my car over would add to the excitement.
What city are you from Sean as i would be delighted to see your 512 one day ?

Cheers and Best Wishes.

Suggest you have them check the water pump while they have the engine out.