512BB ... questions from a prospective buyer

paradiz · 12-09-2009, 07:57 AM

hey guys.... I've been trawling and lurking a few different forums over the past year now and have not really figured out which ferrari exactly that i want. I want them all!! Unfortunately, at my age i think i should just get THE one and be content with it. But trying to decide on The one has taken me to the far corners of the ferrari world, though i dare say i have not gone far enough.

My options were very limited by models available in the market in Malaysia and its a sellers market for sure. Tax is astronomical and the car dealers are minting it. Owners that want to sell their cars, tend to overvalue them and the prices don't seem to match the actual value. Just this week a '96 F355B went on the market for approx US$100K, a '06 F430 goes for US$300K ... we pay double..... go figure!

I was more than willing to shell out for the F355B of which i found one asking for US$88K. But then again, i drifted off course and leaned towards a '99 360.

It started with the 456, then the 328, and i moved to the F355 spider then the F355B, then the 360 modena and now.... one last time its the 512BB. Ech and every ferrari model i was interested in presented itself with it's own unique problems... pros and cons. And each of them with the exception of the 360, are hard to find and if they do go on the market, there's one or two only available. Currently there's a total of 6 pre '99 ferraris for sale in malaysia and about 12 post '99 units. Not a huge amount to choose from.

I have struck gold when i stumbled upon a vintage car dealer that can bring in pre '85 cars without paying the astronomical tax the govt requires... and the mark-ups the dealers are slapping on these cars. This however limits my choices and the only ferrari i would really consider is the 512BB. The only ferrari of substance that I can think off. Its a beautiful beast!

Bearing in mind the fact that are limited amounts of ferraris on he road here and probably no 512BB's, at all. This also means there's a limited number of qualified ferrari mechanics in the country and spare parts will obviously have to be flown in.

So tell me guys... I AM in love withe the car and some friends who know about ferraris have advised me against getting the 512BB as it'll spend more time in the workshop than on the road. Its an emotional tug i cannot resist and i know that one way or another, this is the car for me. I just have to know from 512BB owners if they are worth the trouble i'm gonna get myself into. What are the potential problems i will be facing and how do I identify them? I will probably be getting the car from the UK and would appreciate advice of which reputable dealers to approach...

please help!!!!!

paradiz

JazzyO · 12-09-2009, 09:35 AM

Hi Paradis,

May I congratulate you on your love for Boxers - you are a man of taste! You've found the right place to ask questions as there are several ex-512BB owners on this board. Maybe current owners too but I can't think of one.

But I am an owner of a carburetted boxer, the predecessor of the 512BB - the 365BB. It shares many components and owner experience overlaps a great deal so let me give you my experience.

Firstly - if we do not consider where you live, then I have to make a plug for the first Boxer. To me it is a more exciting machine than the 512BB, which was made more driveable and a little less frantic. For some people that would make the better machine the 512, for me it makes the 365 the right choice. So that is something you might want to take into account.

Second - spares are all still available for both the 365 and 512, so you don't have a problem there YET. But - if you are in this for the long haul, and I presume you are then you must consider that some things will run out in the next decade and having things made from Malaysia might be an issue. Or even a nightmare. Having said that, having some 512BB friends through forums like this certainly helps a lot so perhaps it will not be as hard as it could be.

Third - how reliable is a 512BB? Well, that is actually not such an easy question to answer. The 512BB (based on my experiences with the 365 BB and my conversations with 512 owners) can be a reliable vehicle. But there are 2 big "IF"s: IF the car is meticulously maintained and IF the car is driven regularly.

So there you have the biggest problem you are facing: finding a 512BB that fits that bill. There are not that many that are really well maintained (because, they ARE expensive to maintain), and there are even fewer that are regularly driven. A lot of owners are a bit scared of their Boxers. They are not that easy to drive and the owners believe the myth that they are not reliable. Consequently, they drive them irregularly, and therefore their car becomes unreliable, so they drive them less, and so on and so forth.

The problem with Boxers is that a 90% car is just as bad as a 10% car. Well, almost. But what I mean is: you never know if the car you've bought is 70, 80, 90 or 100%. I would absolutely expect to spend serious money on ANY Boxer I would buy, before it was reliable. And as an example: my 365BB was a great looking car, didn't drive badly at all, no noises, squeeks, rattles, great gear change. But when I actually wanted to use the car, it broke down on me left right and centre and to get it right is a €50k job. So you need to be prepared for that.

When the car is running right, the Boxer engine will need servicing every 2 years. Since the BB is carburetted, the carburettors will also need adjusting every couple of years. The engine is quite sensitive - if there are 1 or 2 things not 100% right she will not run well. At least, the 365 is like that.

So that was all the bad news. On the other hand, you will be only one driving something so beautiful in all of Malaysia! There's a lot to be said for that, too!

Hope this helps somewhat. The ex-512BB owners (Vitalone, Boxer et al) will be able to help you more.

Onno

Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS · 12-09-2009, 09:54 AM

Not much to add more to Onno's input. Make sure you compare the three BBs because they do have different personalities despite the similar looks. I believe I made short comments comparing the three in one of my old threads.
If your interest is 512BB, consider things like body weight/ handling, torque, HP, etc. I am sure Malaysia is a hot/ humid place, thus properly maintiained and working AC is a must. I do not bother to fix my AC in my 365BB because I kinda like the "torture", and BBs do get very "warm" in the cockpit. w/ smiles Jimmy

Granucci · 12-09-2009, 10:14 AM

Anyone have more direct comments on his location: I would believe that to be a major concern.

Boxer · 12-09-2009, 10:59 AM

Couple of comments and suggestions, per JazzyO's comments, have you driven all three BB model?. If not, definitely worth doing before making a final decision. As background, suggest you read the BB articles in a few of the FerrariLife Quarterly issues: http://www.ferrarilife.com/flq/flq.php

On dealers in the UK, please PM me if you would like a recommendation.

Can you run a BB in Malaysia, yes but only if you have a mechanic that really knows how to maintain the car. (I lived in KL many years ago).

On climate, the BB cockpit is a bit of an oven and the AC is useless. Might be worth finding out if a modern system could be fitted, otherwise you will roast.

Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS · 12-09-2009, 11:52 AM

I like it well done, Boxer. w/ smiles Jimmy

paradiz · 12-10-2009, 11:51 PM

thanks guys for all the advice. I do realize that it wont be an easy task to OWN such a beautiful object of desire... but i have had some practice being married to a beautiful woman.. (read high maintainance....)

I am still gathering data on the car and have written to two dealers in the UK to help me out. There are a few on teh market and their prices range between £60K- £120K .. phew.... kinda scary to have such a great difference in price. Makes you wonder if there's something really wrong with the cheaper car.

Anywayz... it's still a long road for me and i'll be checking back and forth to enrich myself with whatever knowledge i can gather here and there. Thanks for the offers to help.. I'll definitely take it on when i need it...

cheers!

f.

JazzyO · 12-11-2009, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paradiz

Makes you wonder if there's something really wrong with the cheaper car

Wonder no longer. There is.

Onno

Boxer · 12-11-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paradiz

I am still gathering data on the car and have written to two dealers in the UK to help me out. There are a few on teh market and their prices range between £60K- £120K .. phew.... kinda scary to have such a great difference in price. Makes you wonder if there's something really wrong with the cheaper car.

f.

Be very careful on the asking price. An honest GBP 60k car might cost you less to run than a GBP 120k car that has just had new paint and a high quality detail to mask a bunch of issues. A detailed PPI is critical on any BB.

12-09-2009, 07:57 AM	#1
paradiz Join Date: Sep 2009 Ferrari Life Posts: 2	512BB ... questions from a prospective buyer hey guys.... I've been trawling and lurking a few different forums over the past year now and have not really figured out which ferrari exactly that i want. I want them all!! Unfortunately, at my age i think i should just get THE one and be content with it. But trying to decide on The one has taken me to the far corners of the ferrari world, though i dare say i have not gone far enough. My options were very limited by models available in the market in Malaysia and its a sellers market for sure. Tax is astronomical and the car dealers are minting it. Owners that want to sell their cars, tend to overvalue them and the prices don't seem to match the actual value. Just this week a '96 F355B went on the market for approx US$100K, a '06 F430 goes for US$300K ... we pay double..... go figure! I was more than willing to shell out for the F355B of which i found one asking for US$88K. But then again, i drifted off course and leaned towards a '99 360. It started with the 456, then the 328, and i moved to the F355 spider then the F355B, then the 360 modena and now.... one last time its the 512BB. Ech and every ferrari model i was interested in presented itself with it's own unique problems... pros and cons. And each of them with the exception of the 360, are hard to find and if they do go on the market, there's one or two only available. Currently there's a total of 6 pre '99 ferraris for sale in malaysia and about 12 post '99 units. Not a huge amount to choose from. I have struck gold when i stumbled upon a vintage car dealer that can bring in pre '85 cars without paying the astronomical tax the govt requires... and the mark-ups the dealers are slapping on these cars. This however limits my choices and the only ferrari i would really consider is the 512BB. The only ferrari of substance that I can think off. Its a beautiful beast! Bearing in mind the fact that are limited amounts of ferraris on he road here and probably no 512BB's, at all. This also means there's a limited number of qualified ferrari mechanics in the country and spare parts will obviously have to be flown in. So tell me guys... I AM in love withe the car and some friends who know about ferraris have advised me against getting the 512BB as it'll spend more time in the workshop than on the road. Its an emotional tug i cannot resist and i know that one way or another, this is the car for me. I just have to know from 512BB owners if they are worth the trouble i'm gonna get myself into. What are the potential problems i will be facing and how do I identify them? I will probably be getting the car from the UK and would appreciate advice of which reputable dealers to approach... please help!!!!! paradiz

12-09-2009, 10:14 AM	#4
Granucci Owner Elite Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: far and away Ferrari Life Posts: 5,025	Anyone have more direct comments on his location: I would believe that to be a major concern. Guide to the Galaxy: Don't Panic Rik -- LAH ! Current: 1990 Mondial T Cabriolet : Red/Tan 1995 456 GT 2+2 : Roso Metalizzato [Fer 311/C] & Tan

12-09-2009, 10:59 AM	#5
Boxer Owner Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Ferrari Life Posts: 12,773	Couple of comments and suggestions, per JazzyO's comments, have you driven all three BB model?. If not, definitely worth doing before making a final decision. As background, suggest you read the BB articles in a few of the FerrariLife Quarterly issues: http://www.ferrarilife.com/flq/flq.php On dealers in the UK, please PM me if you would like a recommendation. Can you run a BB in Malaysia, yes but only if you have a mechanic that really knows how to maintain the car. (I lived in KL many years ago). On climate, the BB cockpit is a bit of an oven and the AC is useless. Might be worth finding out if a modern system could be fitted, otherwise you will roast. Boxer Current: F40, F50, 612, 430 Scuderia Past: 360 Modena, 360 Challenge, 550, 575, 365BB, 512BB, 456 GT, F355 GTS, 365 GTB/4 Daytona, 308 GTB

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12-09-2009, 09:35 AM	#2
JazzyO Owner Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Jersey, Channel Islands Ferrari Life Posts: 4,280	Hi Paradis, May I congratulate you on your love for Boxers - you are a man of taste! You've found the right place to ask questions as there are several ex-512BB owners on this board. Maybe current owners too but I can't think of one. But I am an owner of a carburetted boxer, the predecessor of the 512BB - the 365BB. It shares many components and owner experience overlaps a great deal so let me give you my experience. Firstly - if we do not consider where you live, then I have to make a plug for the first Boxer. To me it is a more exciting machine than the 512BB, which was made more driveable and a little less frantic. For some people that would make the better machine the 512, for me it makes the 365 the right choice. So that is something you might want to take into account. Second - spares are all still available for both the 365 and 512, so you don't have a problem there YET. But - if you are in this for the long haul, and I presume you are then you must consider that some things will run out in the next decade and having things made from Malaysia might be an issue. Or even a nightmare. Having said that, having some 512BB friends through forums like this certainly helps a lot so perhaps it will not be as hard as it could be. Third - how reliable is a 512BB? Well, that is actually not such an easy question to answer. The 512BB (based on my experiences with the 365 BB and my conversations with 512 owners) can be a reliable vehicle. But there are 2 big "IF"s: IF the car is meticulously maintained and IF the car is driven regularly. So there you have the biggest problem you are facing: finding a 512BB that fits that bill. There are not that many that are really well maintained (because, they ARE expensive to maintain), and there are even fewer that are regularly driven. A lot of owners are a bit scared of their Boxers. They are not that easy to drive and the owners believe the myth that they are not reliable. Consequently, they drive them irregularly, and therefore their car becomes unreliable, so they drive them less, and so on and so forth. The problem with Boxers is that a 90% car is just as bad as a 10% car. Well, almost. But what I mean is: you never know if the car you've bought is 70, 80, 90 or 100%. I would absolutely expect to spend serious money on ANY Boxer I would buy, before it was reliable. And as an example: my 365BB was a great looking car, didn't drive badly at all, no noises, squeeks, rattles, great gear change. But when I actually wanted to use the car, it broke down on me left right and centre and to get it right is a €50k job. So you need to be prepared for that. When the car is running right, the Boxer engine will need servicing every 2 years. Since the BB is carburetted, the carburettors will also need adjusting every couple of years. The engine is quite sensitive - if there are 1 or 2 things not 100% right she will not run well. At least, the 365 is like that. So that was all the bad news. On the other hand, you will be only one driving something so beautiful in all of Malaysia! There's a lot to be said for that, too! Hope this helps somewhat. The ex-512BB owners (Vitalone, Boxer et al) will be able to help you more. Onno

12-09-2009, 09:54 AM	#3
Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS Owner Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Yokohama & Tokyo, Japan Ferrari Life Posts: 3,540 Name: Jimmy Chen Shiba	Not much to add more to Onno's input. Make sure you compare the three BBs because they do have different personalities despite the similar looks. I believe I made short comments comparing the three in one of my old threads. If your interest is 512BB, consider things like body weight/ handling, torque, HP, etc. I am sure Malaysia is a hot/ humid place, thus properly maintiained and working AC is a must. I do not bother to fix my AC in my 365BB because I kinda like the "torture", and BBs do get very "warm" in the cockpit. w/ smiles Jimmy

12-09-2009, 11:52 AM	#6
Jimmy Chen Shiba DDS Owner Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Yokohama & Tokyo, Japan Ferrari Life Posts: 3,540 Name: Jimmy Chen Shiba	I like it well done, Boxer. w/ smiles Jimmy

12-10-2009, 11:51 PM	#7
paradiz Join Date: Sep 2009 Ferrari Life Posts: 2	thanks guys for all the advice. I do realize that it wont be an easy task to OWN such a beautiful object of desire... but i have had some practice being married to a beautiful woman.. (read high maintainance....) I am still gathering data on the car and have written to two dealers in the UK to help me out. There are a few on teh market and their prices range between £60K- £120K .. phew.... kinda scary to have such a great difference in price. Makes you wonder if there's something really wrong with the cheaper car. Anywayz... it's still a long road for me and i'll be checking back and forth to enrich myself with whatever knowledge i can gather here and there. Thanks for the offers to help.. I'll definitely take it on when i need it... cheers! f.