[brettgagnon]

I am seriously thinking of getting a GT4 or 400i but I am wondering if they are really a good buy long term (I am thinking hold 10-20 years minimum)

thoughts?

impressions?

[Granucci]

10-20 years: THEN YES. A really good buy for later resale if I read you meaning.

You may put [as all exotics] more money into the care of it, but for that length of period I would expect a nice enjoyable return on your investment.

It's keeping it short term where you'll feel you paid out too much money: You have looked at this wisely IMO.

[JazzyO]

Just bear in mind that these cars incur high maintenance cost, even relative to other Ferraris, and 80% - 90% of the market are poorly maintained cars due to the market position they have had for the past 10 years.

If you find a good one and maintain it well, it is a great car (to be fair, I've never driven one). Due to the above problem, good ones will become very rare so investment potential guaranteed. However, I would look long and hard until I found a perfect one. That means: including all books and tools and impeccable service history. You won't pay that much more for it now, but it will increase the investment tremendously.

Best of luck!


Onno

P.S. Also find out about the differences. I think the carb'd 365 might be rarer and more desirable.

[Granucci]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Just bear in mind that these cars incur high maintenance cost, even relative to other Ferraris, and 80% - 90% of the market are poorly maintained cars due to the market position they have had for the past 10 years.

If you find a good one and maintain it well, it is a great car (to be fair, I've never driven one). Due to the above problem, good ones will become very rare so investment potential guaranteed. However, I would look long and hard until I found a perfect one. That means: including all books and tools and impeccable service history. You won't pay that much more for it now, but it will increase the investment tremendously.

Best of luck!


Onno

P.S. Also find out about the differences. I think the carb'd 365 might be rarer and more desirable.

Wouldn't a carbed example be more of a maintenance cost over time than the 400, if not to mention the body needing care: I know the model would fair better in terms of return to investment over time as rarer, but still much more costly to maintian.

A great example and I know of many here who have nice feelings for the 400 as Onno states, would be a good investment.

[wetpet]

Define "good buy".

[Granucci]

Originally Posted by wetpet

Define "good buy".

The only way to define such a relative term is to see an example and price, then and ask the question.

[brettgagnon]

Use this as an example of is it or isn't it:

1981 Used Ferrari 400i Gran Turismo at Windy City Motorsports Serving Schaumburg, IL, IID 7074767

A good buy for me is a quality vehicle that will hopefully appreciate over time and will not run 10-20% of purchase price per year to maintain. Oh, and would i be proud for my child to inherit

[Killer58]

I think it highly unlikely that a 400 will appreciate in the next ten years. Still unlikely, albeit less so, that a GT4 will appreciate to any extent. Either way, not enough to overcome the expense of ownership.

That 400i is now 30 years old with over 40K miles. If they aren't already, the electronics and rubber bits will get scarce. And expensive. The motor will one day need an overhaul. While you may get by for the first year or two, it will soon need at least 10% of its purchase price per year (averaged) to maintain. In fact, I'd bet that over a ten year ownership period, you'd exceed 100% of the purchase price on maintenance and repairs.

In its day, a Model A Ford would never have been considered to one day be "valuable". And while they have indeed appreciated over the years, an "investment" they are not.

Unless you're investing in happiness....

[Granucci]

Wetpet may have a more valid point here than just my request: Can you better relate what a 'good buy' means to you.

[brettgagnon]

I think below that I posted is what I mean

Boxer suggested in an IM that a 308 GTB is a better buy in his opinion then a 400, and I am leaning that way. My logic is to slowly but surely add prancing horses to the household as I can afford cash for car + 1 year of bad maintenance, but with the thought that once in they will never leave.

Originally Posted by brettgagnon

A good buy for me is a quality vehicle that will hopefully appreciate over time and will not run 10-20% of purchase price per year to maintain. Oh, and would i be proud for my child to inherit

[wetpet]

if you pay average price, not much after the early 70's is going up soon. i don't think anything under about 150k is gonna be a good buy in the traditional sense. I can tell you that my 328 was a good buy for me even if i sell it for a dollar. Make no mistake, these are expensive cars to own and are rarely a break even or better situation. Back to the op, no i don't think the gt4 or the 400 will be a good buy in any sense.

[Vitalone]

Originally Posted by JazzyO

Just bear in mind that these cars incur high maintenance cost, even relative to other Ferraris, and 80% - 90% of the market are poorly maintained cars due to the market position they have had for the past 10 years.

If you find a good one and maintain it well, it is a great car (to be fair, I've never driven one). Due to the above problem, good ones will become very rare so investment potential guaranteed. However, I would look long and hard until I found a perfect one. That means: including all books and tools and impeccable service history. You won't pay that much more for it now, but it will increase the investment tremendously.

Best of luck!


Onno

P.S. Also find out about the differences. I think the carb'd 365 might be rarer and more desirable.

Good points Onno about the different models and high cost of maintenance relative to market value.

There is a big difference between a 365 GT/4 and a 400i automatic. All 365's were manual whereas most 400's were automatic. The 400 has more torque, the 365 prefers to rev with the same power. The 400 on carbs produces more power than the 400i. So research and driving the different tipos is important to make sure you get the best buy, i.e the tipo that talks to you, that makes you feel special when you drive it, is fun to drive and puts a smile on your face.

A good buy from a market value point of view means finding a car that has been maintained regardless of cost. Values have been low for a long time making restorations uneconomical from a money point of view. So most have probably suffered deferred maintenance or cheap fixes that look good on the outside but not to drive much further than the local car show. A few have been loved and treasured so that the maintenance bills exceed their market value, these are the ones to patiently search for.

Kept in tip top condition starting from a good one in the first place means you will probably get your money back in the long run. For it to be a good buy it needs to be a Ferrari that really talks to you and stirs the imagination as an Enzo V12 when you drive it far and fast.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by brettgagnon

A good buy for me is a quality vehicle that will hopefully appreciate over time and will not run 10-20% of purchase price per year to maintain.

There are definitely 400i's out there that do not make your grade. The best 400i's can sit below or above that 10% depending on purchase price and your personal preference.

I find a lot of people assume there is some scientific number in yearly running costs. In my experience it is at least for 50% dependent on the owner. If I would run a 400i I'm absolutely sure I would spend more than $4k a year. Others would spend less than a $1000.


Onno

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by Granucci

Wouldn't a carbed example be more of a maintenance cost over time than the 400, if not to mention the body needing care: I know the model would fair better in terms of return to investment over time as rarer, but still much more costly to maintian.

I disagree with that. A good carbed car does not cost much more than a good injection car and only needs very intermittent adjustment (max once a year, a 10min job). The problem is only when the carb car is not well set up.

Why do you think there would be a difference in body maintenance costs? The body of the 365 and the 400i are practically identical. There are a bit more differences with the 412i but still, a body is a body.


Onno

[barcheta]

I like the angular looks of the 400/412s. The black example you listed is quite nice. A GT4 is quite the driver's car in comparison. It's really apples and oranges. Neither car is a good buy is terms of maintenance versus value. It really depends though on what you want out of the experience. The 400 series is big and heavy in comparison to the GT4. As several others have said I think you need to measure the level of deferred maintenance in each car you look at. For my dollars, even though I prefer the styling of of the 400 I would buy a 456 for about the same money before messing with one of those.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by barcheta

I like the angular looks of the 400/412s.


...


The 400 series is big and heavy in comparison to the GT4.

Big and heavy? An identical car? Suddenly I'm thinking about Rik's response as well.

You guys do know that the first version of the 400i was the 365 GT4, don't you? Your answers don't make sense to me if you guys are aware of that. I have a feeling that there is confusion with other GT4's or other 365's.

This is a 365 GT4 2+2.


Onno

[barcheta]

Onno.... Um... you know what... you are absolutely correct. I was thinking he meant the 308 GT4.... I see now that isn't the case. Yeah 365 GT4/400/412.... same same. My apologies to Brent.

I still stand by my last statement though I'd spend a few dollars more and get a 456.

[Granucci]

Now that I understand the OP's [Brettgagnon] desires a bit better.

- I guess he is more about era than specific model as originally posted
- Recommendations by all and how they will fair is in keeping with my understanding with one exception below:

-- The 400 is very low priced, depreciated totally I'm thinking and only needing TLC to keep it's value.
-- ALL Ferrari/exotics or such require a yearly budget.
-- What I meant on the 365 was more in maintenance terms of not just engine specific mechs [guess there are plenty?] to maintian it, but mostly the body parts, which I'm now told are not different than the 400+ series.

I still think IF he wanted a 365/400 that the 'value' of owning one over 10-20 years would be a good investment in terms of what he stated he wanted. Low entry, moderate maintenance or maintenance costs that compare to others post 60's, and good return in they are getting scarcer in an already limited market where after 10-20 years, he might reap even a break even to include most maintenance costs: IF he gets a good example to start with.

However, since now the models are all over the place being considered, and looks more to be a lower entry point of a particular era, as well as four seater models almost entirely, I'll say he has a lot of choices to discover.

Discover. Took his op too literal, and did not know it could be expanded.

When I chose I knew exactly what model, year, color and etc.

Brettgagnon: I would start downloading the buyer's guides at this time to assist your quest.

[brettgagnon]

I have downloaded them all, I think I am set on either a carbed 77-79 308 (GTB preferred but GTS if it is the right car) or an 84-85 308 GTS

[wetpet]

good call